Bush's $700,000,000,000 Bailout!!!

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  • ddr
    replied
    Re: Bush's $700,000,000,000 Bailout!!!

    good article here: http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/09/...out/index.html

    makes some good points against the bailout.

    Editor's note: Jeffrey A. Miron is senior lecturer in economics at Harvard University. A Libertarian, he was one of 166 academic economists who signed a letter to congressional leaders last week opposing the government bailout plan.


    Economist Jeffrey Miron says the bailout plan presented to Congress was the wrong solution to the crisis

    CAMBRIDGE, Massachusetts (CNN) -- Congress has balked at the Bush administration's proposed $700 billion bailout of Wall Street. Under this plan, the Treasury would have bought the "troubled assets" of financial institutions in an attempt to avoid economic meltdown.

    This bailout was a terrible idea. Here's why.

    The current mess would never have occurred in the absence of ill-conceived federal policies. The federal government chartered Fannie Mae in 1938 and Freddie Mac in 1970; these two mortgage lending institutions are at the center of the crisis. The government implicitly promised these institutions that it would make good on their debts, so Fannie and Freddie took on huge amounts of excessive risk.

    Worse, beginning in 1977 and even more in the 1990s and the early part of this century, Congress pushed mortgage lenders and Fannie/Freddie to expand subprime lending. The industry was happy to oblige, given the implicit promise of federal backing, and subprime lending soared.

    This subprime lending was more than a minor relaxation of existing credit guidelines. This lending was a wholesale abandonment of reasonable lending practices in which borrowers with poor credit characteristics got mortgages they were ill-equipped to handle.

    Once housing prices declined and economic conditions worsened, defaults and delinquencies soared, leaving the industry holding large amounts of severely depreciated mortgage assets.

    The fact that government bears such a huge responsibility for the current mess means any response should eliminate the conditions that created this situation in the first place, not attempt to fix bad government with more government.

    The obvious alternative to a bailout is letting troubled financial institutions declare bankruptcy. Bankruptcy means that shareholders typically get wiped out and the creditors own the company.

    Bankruptcy does not mean the company disappears; it is just owned by someone new (as has occurred with several airlines). Bankruptcy punishes those who took excessive risks while preserving those aspects of a businesses that remain profitable.

    In contrast, a bailout transfers enormous wealth from taxpayers to those who knowingly engaged in risky subprime lending. Thus, the bailout encourages companies to take large, imprudent risks and count on getting bailed out by government. This "moral hazard" generates enormous distortions in an economy's allocation of its financial resources.

    Thoughtful advocates of the bailout might concede this perspective, but they argue that a bailout is necessary to prevent economic collapse. According to this view, lenders are not making loans, even for worthy projects, because they cannot get capital. This view has a grain of truth; if the bailout does not occur, more bankruptcies are possible and credit conditions may worsen for a time.

    Talk of Armageddon, however, is ridiculous scare-mongering. If financial institutions cannot make productive loans, a profit opportunity exists for someone else. This might not happen instantly, but it will happen.

    Further, the current credit freeze is likely due to Wall Street's hope of a bailout; bankers will not sell their lousy assets for 20 cents on the dollar if the government might pay 30, 50, or 80 cents.

    The costs of the bailout, moreover, are almost certainly being understated. The administration's claim is that many mortgage assets are merely illiquid, not truly worthless, implying taxpayers will recoup much of their $700 billion.

    If these assets are worth something, however, private parties should want to buy them, and they would do so if the owners would accept fair market value. Far more likely is that current owners have brushed under the rug how little their assets are worth.

    The bailout has more problems. The final legislation will probably include numerous side conditions and special dealings that reward Washington lobbyists and their clients.

    Anticipation of the bailout will engender strategic behavior by Wall Street institutions as they shuffle their assets and position their balance sheets to maximize their take. The bailout will open the door to further federal meddling in financial markets.

    So what should the government do? Eliminate those policies that generated the current mess. This means, at a general level, abandoning the goal of home ownership independent of ability to pay. This means, in particular, getting rid of Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, along with policies like the Community Reinvestment Act that pressure banks into subprime lending.

    The right view of the financial mess is that an enormous fraction of subprime lending should never have occurred in the first place. Someone has to pay for that. That someone should not be, and does not need to be, the U.S. taxpayer.

    Leave a comment:


  • Miroslav
    replied
    Re: Bush's $700,000,000,000 Bailout!!!

    Originally posted by runningman
    Thank you.. now I don't know my history and finance..

    Miro let me tell you no matter what the government does it's going to bad.. If they bail them out it will get bad in 8 months because of Hyperinflation.. if they don't it will get bad in 1 month. I say lets get this over with already. A correction needs to be made and sometimes corrections are tough. Now you don't change the system because of some idiots. You hold the idiots accountable. Well at least you used to hold them accountable. But it just goes to show how corrupt the US system really is.
    I didn't say whether you do or don't know your history and finance. All I said was that if you do, then you know about what happened in the 1930s.

    And I don't disagree with you that it's going to get bad either way. As I said, the bus is broken and has to crash either way. And the idiots should be held accountable to whatever extent we can hold them so. I would only offer the viewpoint one last time that more of us "good guys" suffer when you crash at higher speed rather than at lower speed. Much of this mess is pschologically driven; there is such a complexity of feedback effects in markets that a snowball effect can be created - and then it's like a runaway train where we end up with worse economic results than we otherwise would have, because whatever little leverage we have over the situation is that much less effective.

    In other words, if you apply your one working brake at 100mph, it's a lot less effective than at 50mph. And even though the bus will crash, it doesn't have to be totalled - it's one thing to go through a severe recession; it's another to have the world-wide financial markets simply collapse entirely. The former is highly preferable to the latter.

    There. I'm sorry if I'm repeating myself over and over; I'll stop now.

    But boy, this bus crash analogy sure works great for this situation...

    Leave a comment:


  • ddr
    replied
    Re: Bush's $700,000,000,000 Bailout!!!

    Originally posted by Miroslav
    I gave the worst-case scenario. And it's a real possibility. If you've studied your history, you'll know that such things have happened before. It's not necessarily the case that we'll see all of that happen quite so drastically, although it is likely, in my opinion, that this mess will still get worse before getting better. We should all pray that it doesn't get that bad.
    yep, that you did.

    the best-case scenario is a recession that lasts 1-2 years.

    either way, we are screwed for the foreseeable future....

    Leave a comment:


  • runningman
    replied
    Re: Bush's $700,000,000,000 Bailout!!!

    Thank you.. now I don't know my history and finance..

    Miro let me tell you no matter what the government does it's going to bad.. If they bail them out it will get bad in 8 months because of Hyperinflation.. if they don't it will get bad in 1 month. I say lets get this over with already. A correction needs to be made and sometimes corrections are tough. Now you don't change the system because of some idiots. You hold the idiots accountable. Well at least you used to hold them accountable. But it just goes to show how corrupt the US system really is.

    Leave a comment:


  • 88Mariner
    replied
    Re: Bush's $700,000,000,000 Bailout!!!

    Originally posted by Miroslav
    sure...pm me or find me on here. I'm stuck in the office doing month-end close desk work for most of the afternoon.


    I gave the worst-case scenario. And it's a real possibility. If you've studied your history, you'll know that such things have happened before. It's not necessarily the case that we'll see all of that happen quite so drastically, although it is likely, in my opinion, that this mess will still get worse before getting better. We should all pray that it doesn't get that bad.
    so long as it doesn't get to (3) i think we'll be fine....

    Leave a comment:


  • ddr
    replied
    Re: Bush's $700,000,000,000 Bailout!!!

    what is the point of Obama and McCain speaking after this? its obvious they dont know jack shit about economics... such a waste of time.

    i am just getting so sick and tired of politics lately.

    Leave a comment:


  • Miroslav
    replied
    Re: Bush's $700,000,000,000 Bailout!!!

    Originally posted by thesightless
    miro, stay around, im about to head over to another office for the evening, i wanna chat.
    sure...pm me or find me on here. I'm stuck in the office doing month-end close desk work for most of the afternoon.

    Originally posted by runningman
    Wow I have heard it all here. Miroslav laid it on thick.

    Keep strong say no to the bailout!!
    I gave the worst-case scenario. I'm not saying that it is a certainty that it will play out this way, and I'm not saying that civilization will simply cease to exist tomorrow; there is no need to grab the shotgun and run for the hills just yet (even during the Great Depression, a good 3/4ths of the population was still employed in some form or another). But we should acknowledge that such an outcome is feasible. Think I'm alone in thinking that? Look at the markets; they're clearly voting with their feet. If you've studied your history, you'll know that such things have happened before. And what would give you confidence that such economic difficulties won't happen? So far, all the people who have been saying "oh, don't worry guys...this is just a flash in the pan...just a small bump...we can bail out Bear Stearns and it's over" have been dead wrong.

    As Mariner88 aptly put it, what we've been deliberating is the difference between a high-speed crash and a low-speed crash. Looks like we've opted for the high-speed crash, which means that more of us passengers likely will die and be injured in the process. But this bus is broken and has to crash one way or another; the basic principles of economics will see to that.

    /metaphor

    Leave a comment:


  • runningman
    replied
    Re: Bush's $700,000,000,000 Bailout!!!

    this just goes to show that people should be in jail for this and everyone of the wallstreet bonuses confiscated.

    Leave a comment:


  • toasty
    replied
    Re: Bush's $700,000,000,000 Bailout!!!

    FAO members of Congress that voted against this:

    no one is happy about this bail out, but this bill was the result of legitimately bipartisan negotiations. The whole point of the negotiations was to have something that we could all (begrudgingly) agree upon so we could pass something and restore some confidence in the American economy, and instead, the opposite has happened. If you had such serious misgivings about this bill, they should have been raised and hashed out before it was brought to the floor.

    @ Boehner, Clyburn & Blunt: Do you fucking jobs, and get your parties in line. Also, if you don't have the votes yet, let Pelosi know so she doesn't bring it to the floor prematurely. Bringing it to the floor only to have it fail is far worse than not bringing it today at all.

    @ Speaker Pelosi: If the bill isn't ready to be passed, don't fucking bring it to the floor. This helps no one. Also, tone down the rhetoric, which also helps no one right now. There will be plenty of time for finger pointing later.

    @ House Republicans that said they'd vote "yes" but voted "no" after hearing Pelosi's speech: Grow a set, or resign your position. "Your feelings being hurt" is not an acceptable reason for me to lose thousands of dollars. This is politics, and people are occasionally going to say things about you that you don't like. Get over yourself.

    What a bunch of jackasses...

    Leave a comment:


  • runningman
    replied
    Re: Bush's $700,000,000,000 Bailout!!!

    the good news is oil went down.. so far so good

    Leave a comment:


  • Miroslav
    replied
    Re: Bush's $700,000,000,000 Bailout!!!

    Originally posted by runningman
    this is just wallstreet going down crying. everyone is selling to push the bill in.
    What you still don't understand is that if Wall Street really goes down crying, then you will too.

    Leave a comment:


  • Huggie Smiles
    replied
    Re: Bush's $700,000,000,000 Bailout!!!

    Originally posted by thesightless
    everyone please read this. great explanation from a PRO, not someone who ahs sumin to say about a topic they have zero experience or schooling in.

    http://www.marketwatch.com/news/stor...st=SecMostRead

    but isnt that saying its NOT like the 1929 situation because so many other factors are different? hes saying its not another great depression - but you are???

    I'm confused.
    and gassy.

    Leave a comment:


  • 88Mariner
    replied
    Re: Bush's $700,000,000,000 Bailout!!!

    Originally posted by Miroslav
    Expect another wave of bank failings, followed by a big wave of corporate/company failings as businesses get cut off from their financing. Maybe the Dow will get whacked back to like 7-8K over the period of a few months. Then expect a downturn in production, widespread deflation, decreased wages, and much higher unemployment. Other signs to look for include: (1) your bank being run on despite FDIC protection - and then waiting for weeks to months instead of days to get your cash back from the government; (2) your credit cards being shut off; (3) school/car loans being called in, (4) clear signs of impoverishment around you on a scale you've never seen before (crumbling roads, bread lines, etc.); and (5) general upturn in crime and civil unrest.

    Basically, all the fire and brimstone stuff.

    quoted for the fucking truth. i've been telling my friends and family just this. and they're all like, 'youre catastrophising'.

    gonna go out and start buying ramen noodels and shit in a few minutes.

    Leave a comment:


  • runningman
    replied
    Re: Bush's $700,000,000,000 Bailout!!!

    Wow I have heard it all here. Miroslav laid it on thick.

    Keep strong say no to the bailout!!

    Leave a comment:


  • thesightless
    replied
    Re: Bush's $700,000,000,000 Bailout!!!

    miro, stay around, im about to head over to another office for the evening, i wanna chat.

    Leave a comment:

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