Shapoopie has just hit the fan in Iraq

[Lorn]

Re: Shit has just hit the fan in Iraq

right on. fucking tired of every Yank yelling 'oil for food' whenever the UN is mentioned. Gotta say that they are pretty well mentally conditioned by anti-European and anti-UN propaganda though. 5 out of 5 star job from the US govt.

Besides, they're just whining about it because it means less oil for them to take from Iraq.

There is no question the US will and is making sure its oil is flowing. If Norway decided to stop selling oil to the US there is no doubt an invasion of Norway would happen.

[Lorn]

Re: Shit has just hit the fan in Iraq

I'm with you on this Yao: if violence is needed, the intervening troops should be under UN mandate. Not that UN troops shoot better or drop bigger bombs or whatever, but there sure as hell will be less or no bullshit about hidden motives like power or oil.

I don't know about that. The UN is full of bullshit agenda's.

[Yao]

Re: Shit has just hit the fan in Iraq

right on. fucking tired of every Yank yelling 'oil for food' whenever the UN is mentioned. Gotta say that they are pretty well mentally conditioned by anti-European and anti-UN propaganda though. 5 out of 5 star job from the US govt.

Besides, they're just whining about it because it means less oil for them to take from Iraq.

[KinKyJ]

Re: Shit has just hit the fan in Iraq

^^^ had nothing to do with UN peace keeping forces.

[88Mariner]

Re: Shit has just hit the fan in Iraq

Congo... Why didn't I think of that? It's a former colony of ours for crying out loud

I'm with you on this Yao: if violence is needed, the intervening troops should be under UN mandate. Not that UN troops shoot better or drop bigger bombs or whatever, but there sure as hell will be less or no bullshit about hidden motives like power or oil.

Oil For Food Scandal Anyone?

Anyone?

Bueller?

Bueller?

Anyone?

[Yao]

Re: Shit has just hit the fan in Iraq

Despite the scandals in Congo and Côte d'Ivoire with the Belgians and French a while ago, I've always admired them for being the only 2 countries daring to take a side and act like it. I wish the UN would have the balls to do that as well, just not take sides but move in and get shit done.

Take Sudan for example...there's a lot of bullshit going around with the govt. there kicking out the UN troops before the AU troops can take over. Jan Pronk got evicted for 'waging a verbal war against the military' and Annan got fooled while visiting camps. Meanwhile some 200.000 people have been killed and it hasn't stopped yet. Their military isn't strong enough to compete with a well-equipped UN force, and like in Congo it is VERY possible to stop the violence with a military force that has the right mandate.
But no...we start off with talking in a conflict where obviously the agressor has no intention of voluntarily sitting around the table, and if they do it's to appease the worried UN while they give us the finger behind our backs. Al-Bashir is a piece of shit that must get the bullet just as bad as Saddam, and we should beat the shit out of those horseriding Janjaweed (or cut the legs from their horses...make the men run until they drop dead). Then bring on the other factions and bring the culprits before the courts. Though far from perfect, the case of Rwanda/Burundi has show that it is a good way to end a conflict.

I've read heaps of books on this shit, and the main reason for conflicts is pretty simple: weak states and governments that lack legitimacy in a setting where being in office is the best way to ensure the survival of your social/religious/ethnical group.

[KinKyJ]

Re: Shit has just hit the fan in Iraq

Sierra Leone, Congo (still in progress), East-Timor, Liberia, off the top of my head.

Enough fuckups, but no-one bothers to look at success or at the least result. I do agree that only talk is not always the solution, but once the fighting has stopped being quiet and sitting down isn't going to get you any progress either. In most conflicts I'd like to see UN troops moving in with a mandate that will allow them to crack down on violence hard, and bring both (or more) warring factions to a truce -forced if necessary. Then the reconciliation process should take off, because it is vital to succesfull cohabitation.

Congo... Why didn't I think of that? It's a former colony of ours for crying out loud

I'm with you on this Yao: if violence is needed, the intervening troops should be under UN mandate. Not that UN troops shoot better or drop bigger bombs or whatever, but there sure as hell will be less or no bullshit about hidden motives like power or oil.

[Yao]

Re: Shit has just hit the fan in Iraq

With all that said, I'm still willing and hoping to be wrong so please give examples where diplomacy has actually succeeded when dealing with cultures other than our own (hence Ireland is out). I'm all ears.

Sierra Leone, Congo (still in progress), East-Timor, Liberia, off the top of my head.

Enough fuckups, but no-one bothers to look at success or at the least result. I do agree that only talk is not always the solution, but once the fighting has stopped being quiet and sitting down isn't going to get you any progress either. In most conflicts I'd like to see UN troops moving in with a mandate that will allow them to crack down on violence hard, and bring both (or more) warring factions to a truce -forced if necessary. Then the reconciliation process should take off, because it is vital to succesfull cohabitation.

[rubyraks]

Re: Shit has just hit the fan in Iraq

I don't think it's the magical solution to everything, but if Israel and Palestina could come to an agreement / plan under the lead of the US, it would give the US a lot of credit in the region instead of the image of colonizators...

true and it's ashamed that Bush allowed whatever progress was made under Clinton to just fall by the wayside. I'm not saying that Arafat's last rejection of a peace offering at Camp David wasn't harmful in and of itself, but a proactive approach to the situation by the Bush administration early on would've been more helpful than just ignoring it entirely.

Btw: http://edition.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS...ran/index.html

dem fighting words!

[KinKyJ]

Re: Shit has just hit the fan in Iraq

I don't think it's the magical solution to everything, but if Israel and Palestina could come to an agreement / plan under the lead of the US, it would give the US a lot of credit in the region instead of the image of colonizators...

Btw: http://edition.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS...ran/index.html

[rubyraks]

Re: Shit has just hit the fan in Iraq

The EU has always been against the invasion, so that's why we're leaving our guns in the closet. When we asked the US not to attack Iraq, the only response the Bush administration had, was "Fine, we'll do this ourselves, we don't need y'all." Ye well, it might be a bit harsh, but I guess you guys are still on your own when it comes to military effort in Iraq.

I'm not going to take up the issue of Iraq, because essentially we're on the same page there. I never wanted that war to begin with for geopolitical reasons that are quite apparent now...better to be with the tyrant you know than one you don't.

Secondly, since the EU is a union of different cultures and languages, I guess dialogue for us is a fundamental tool to solve conflicts.

Couldn't agree more and the US has been in the position for a damn long time where we're pretty good at isolating ourselves and sometimes it shows horribly.

Tough one... While I'm thinking, could you find examples after WWII where war/military action solved a problem and at least one party could call itself victor?

Yeah I hear you, not the easiest to name either...the only thing militarily that's been accomplished is installing other tyrants that were in our interests...see latin america and far east asia.

I think that if Bush would've continued with the peace process which Clinton got going in Palestina, we wouldn't be in such a mess right now. Ahmadinejad is a demagogue, but he's right about one thing: all the problems in the ME are tied together and the knot lies between Israel and Palestina...

I'll agree with you on continuing the peace process would have helped matters out quite a bit...hell just showing an interest would've been better, but to think that Israel/Palestine is the solution to the middle east is playing it blind. You're falling for the same smokescreen that every leader in that region would like you to see. They continue to persecute their people and take advantage of them economically and as long as everyone blames it on Israel and the US, they could do what they want. Do you really think that would solve it? What's going on in Iraq is not because of Israel and Palestine. It is merely the wounds of a power struggle that has been going on in that region for a long time.

[KinKyJ]

Re: Shit has just hit the fan in Iraq

Hasn't this approach been tried time and time again? I know that Europe has been shell-shocked from having two world wars that devastated the continent (and rightfully so), but exactly at which point are they ever willing to pick up their arms and do something about it. Talk talk talk...it seems is the only approach that Europe finds acceptable.

The EU has always been against the invasion, so that's why we're leaving our guns in the closet. When we asked the US not to attack Iraq, the only response the Bush administration had, was "Fine, we'll do this ourselves, we don't need y'all." Ye well, it might be a bit harsh, but I guess you guys are still on your own when it comes to military effort in Iraq.

Secondly, since the EU is a union of different cultures and languages, I guess dialogue for us is a fundamental tool to solve conflicts.

And I'm far from a gun-toting American, but at some point diplomacy fails and that has to be recognized. I hate war as much as the next guy, but it does become an unnecessary evil at times.

Very true, you won't hear me nagging about when NATO jets bombed the shit out of the Serbs when they were wiping out entire muslim villages in Kosovo and Bosnia. At a certain point there's no option other than military action. But diplomacy never got a chance in Iraq: Bush charged in like a raging bull while Saddam kept on repeating he had no WMD's. Unfortunately he was speaking the truth, turning the invasion into an unnecessary war apart from an illegal one.

With all that said, I'm still willing and hoping to be wrong so please give examples where diplomacy has actually succeeded when dealing with cultures other than our own (hence Ireland is out). I'm all ears.

Tough one... While I'm thinking, could you find examples after WWII where war/military action solved a problem and at least one party could call itself victor?

I think that if Bush would've continued with the peace process which Clinton got going in Palestina, we wouldn't be in such a mess right now. Ahmadinejad is a demagogue, but he's right about one thing: all the problems in the ME are tied together and the knot lies between Israel and Palestina...

[rubyraks]

Re: Shit has just hit the fan in Iraq

Imo it's time to put an end to the polarization which is being fueled by both sides. Peace talks and reconcilliation is the only solution if you ask me...

Hasn't this approach been tried time and time again? I know that Europe has been shell-shocked from having two world wars that devastated the continent (and rightfully so), but exactly at which point are they ever willing to pick up their arms and do something about it. Talk talk talk...it seems is the only approach that Europe finds acceptable.

And I'm far from a gun-toting American, but at some point diplomacy fails and that has to be recognized. I hate war as much as the next guy, but it does become an unnecessary evil at times.

With all that said, I'm still willing and hoping to be wrong so please give examples where diplomacy has actually succeeded when dealing with cultures other than our own (hence Ireland is out). I'm all ears.

[KinKyJ]

Re: Shit has just hit the fan in Iraq

I totally understand what you're saying. But what if this raid actually uncovered files or records( like the article mentioned) of talks that would incriminate Iran when it comes to the nuke development issue, or maybe plans for other types of attacks.( now I know any government with sense would keep that shite underwraps but who knows) I know I'm sounding like an idealist ,but when you serve this country you kinda have to think like that, as a way of self motivation, if you know what I'm trying to say. And to your other statement about trying to get Iran to talk deals or whatever, knowing the little bit I know about amadenijad or however you spell it, Idon't think he will ever come to the table to talk, I think this is like a big f'n game to him and he'll play forever. I don't know thats just how I feel.

I understand perfectly where you're coming from and I respect that. At least you're not swallowing everything with your eyes closed.

What if there were such documents... Ye well, what if indeed. It still wouldn't justify the attack and the capture of five Iranians. I mean, in our countries the police doesn't charge into houses without a warrant, do they? Moreover, I think the CIA has enough intel without having to raid a diplomatic post like this.

Ahmadinejad sitting down at a table to talk might be highly unlikely indeed. But a provocation like this isn't helping that either. On the contrary: Ahmadinejad can (ab)use this to gain more popularity in the region ("See what the American Way and Western Democracy really stand for? If we don't put our foot down, they will colonize the entire ME...") or he can use this as a justification to invade Iraq himself. Now what are +/- 130.000 US troops going to do if they have to fight those guys as well?

And that's just the reaction of Teheran I'm talking about. I don't want to know how Al Quaida, Hamas, Hezbollah and others are going to react to it.

Imo it's time to put an end to the polarization which is being fueled by both sides. Peace talks and reconcilliation is the only solution if you ask me... But unfortunately there are economical cards in this poker game as well...

[hambino21]

Re: Shit has just hit the fan in Iraq

Plus if they did, I think Im too old and I def wont pass the "physical"

thats funny you mention that. The Army just raised the max age to 44yrs old for vollunteers, and my friend just got in the Army with a history of heart problems which they probably turned a blind eye to. or he just happened to some how leave out of the equation.