A SAD, SAD DAY...

[sacredawe78]

To be completely honest there sacred, I definetely see your POV (Point of View) and in a lot of ways agree with it.

Falalism is excepting fate, excepting what you cannot change. To a certain extent, this may describe my POV, but it doesn't. Things are never so simple. The only thing I except is human nature, exceptance in fact is not fatalism. I don't believe in fate, we make our own fate. I do however believe in nature, and in some of the things that go with it. The fact remains that humans are a war like people, we need leaders because we cannot think for ourselves. We need to believe in something like god because we are afraid. Fear is the only fear. Except I am not excepting my fate when I say that war will be forever. Its simply a fact, and I say it as a fellow scientist.

I agree with ASDF, it will take aliens to invade us to throw away our problems so that we can finally work together. It will take something bigger then ourselves to come along and make us cooporate or perish. Except then, we haven't eliminated war, only war amongst ourselves. Because at that time we will have created space travel and using wormholes, travel to distance regions of space and confront war in a whole new manner. This is not fatalism. This is truth.

No it is fatalism...you basically just make a circular argument...you started with a conclusion and ended with it...

One thing you did say is true...OK??

that we are always at strife...that is a FACT...i AGREE...BUT....

we can be TACTFUL with our strife, we can argue, we can reduce our omnipresent strife to a stage of reason...THE ARGUMENT...that CAN happen...it does not need to be overextended into causing mass chaos simply because we must be at strife...that is what you fatalism ultimately causes

we have to harness the basic fundamental principles you stated and just live with it...rather than saying "oh thats just your opinion," you should come back at me with full effect and give me an argument...therefore, we would always be DIALECTICAL...we would always be doing what is BEST in a dynamic way...and STILLLL be at one with entropy...ok???

we are at war naturally...FACT,,, BUT...your normative reality says go all out and dont hold back...mine says, be at war through REASON!

i agree with your facts, but your fatalism really is a reality...sorry to say

[Garrick]

Falalism is excepting fate, excepting what you cannot change.

ACCEPTING

[Civic_Zen]

To be completely honest there sacred, I definetely see your POV (Point of View) and in a lot of ways agree with it.

Falalism is excepting fate, excepting what you cannot change. To a certain extent, this may describe my POV, but it doesn't. Things are never so simple. The only thing I except is human nature, exceptance in fact is not fatalism. I don't believe in fate, we make our own fate. I do however believe in nature, and in some of the things that go with it. The fact remains that humans are a war like people, we need leaders because we cannot think for ourselves. We need to believe in something like god because we are afraid. Fear is the only fear. Except I am not excepting my fate when I say that war will be forever. Its simply a fact, and I say it as a fellow scientist.

I agree with ASDF, it will take aliens to invade us to throw away our problems so that we can finally work together. It will take something bigger then ourselves to come along and make us cooporate or perish. Except then, we haven't eliminated war, only war amongst ourselves. Because at that time we will have created space travel and using wormholes, travel to distance regions of space and confront war in a whole new manner. This is not fatalism. This is truth.

[sacredawe78]

all i stated was that you are angry. and when you are angry most of the time you do things you regret. be it "words" or "actions", it is know from a physiological stand point you do make the best choices when you are clam and at peace. not when you are disturbed by some political event.

That is coming form a Husband and a Father.

My friend, you have many valid points. but you must use the force wisely. remember Return of the Jedi? Don't join the dark side.

I respect that you have a lot of heart into this, and it has really bummed you out. I understand that. Relax, just talk to us with your heart and not with your emotions. :wink:

I want to hear what you have to say, but I do not want the negative energy around it. Fair?

look...well continue this conversation a little later...i understand there is a world of irony available in what im saying to satirize, but that in itself is a little too cliche, dont you think?? considering what is at stake, humor only offers temporary pychological relief, it does very little to change anything

i am very pissed off bush won...and probably will be for some time....i cant help it...im sure my anger will turn into somethine more refined as time passes, but this is all part of the process....i hope all of you start getting more proactive...

later

[asdf_admin]

all i stated was that you are angry. and when you are angry most of the time you do things you regret. be it "words" or "actions", it is know from a physiological stand point you do make the best choices when you are clam and at peace. not when you are disturbed by some political event.

That is coming form a Husband and a Father.

My friend, you have many valid points. but you must use the force wisely. remember Return of the Jedi? Don't join the dark side.

I respect that you have a lot of heart into this, and it has really bummed you out. I understand that. Relax, just talk to us with your heart and not with your emotions. :wink:

I want to hear what you have to say, but I do not want the negative energy around it. Fair?

[sacredawe78]

I was about to say the same thing toaster, except Kafka was too much of prestigious writer for sacred awe to be at a basis for comparisson. I mean, I know there are some belligerent people on this board, but your hostility has become nothing short of amazing.

Even if the American people could respect such a viewpoint, how in the hell do you get the rest of the world to comply. What your talking about sacred is a pipedream, calling you utopian is being too fair. Your just delusional. Have you read anything that comes out of the Middle East lately? Allah this, Allah that. These people believe that their god wishes this Jihad, and they will not stop until it reaches some sort of outcome. Be it the end of America, or the end of the propoganda machine that Islam has come to represent. I would tend to give the advantage to the good old US of A, it will not crumble so easily. But until some things in this world drastically change, which won't be anytime soon, why even worry yourself with such delusions of grandeur??

they wont change because of people such as yourself who are fatalists, your fatalism is not something i or anyone else can get rid of...we are a species and everything you do affects me and vice versa...there is no moral progess because of your nihilism

ok????

not delusions here...it is a reality

and yes i could never write as well as kafka, but i sure as hell know damn well what he was saying..perhaps you should re read some of his books?? and try to understand what his role is in the entire post modern movement and understand that existensialism and its art forms are really syptoms of a culture that has no basis for rational communication

[sacredawe78]

youre comparing me to hitler because im angry

there is nothing morally wrong with being angry...there is nothing morally wrong about calling people out

there is something morally wrong about killing 5 million jews

there is something morally wrong about killing iraquis and exploiting there natural resources

[asdf_admin]

Hitler was angry.

[Civic_Zen]

I was about to say the same thing toaster, except Kafka was too much of prestigious writer for sacred awe to be at a basis for comparisson. I mean, I know there are some belligerent people on this board, but your hostility has become nothing short of amazing.

Even if the American people could respect such a viewpoint, how in the hell do you get the rest of the world to comply. What your talking about sacred is a pipedream, calling you utopian is being too fair. Your just delusional. Have you read anything that comes out of the Middle East lately? Allah this, Allah that. These people believe that their god wishes this Jihad, and they will not stop until it reaches some sort of outcome. Be it the end of America, or the end of the propoganda machine that Islam has come to represent. I would tend to give the advantage to the good old US of A, it will not crumble so easily. But until some things in this world drastically change, which won't be anytime soon, why even worry yourself with such delusions of grandeur??

[sacredawe78]

all your telling me is that more people voted for bush

no reason to rescind what ive been saying

Kafka was part of the existential avant garde...I want liberation from that...ok?

[asdf_admin]

I dunno. But Kerry had a very wonderful heart flet speech just a moment ago. I wish he would of showed that a little more.

Truly beautiful.

/starts to wonder.

[toasty]

we are royally fucked yes we are

so lets not all get diplomatic and pretend like that will change anything..the sentiments I expressed at the beginning of this thread characterize an existential disenfranchised member of a society/species who cannot communicate with his fellow man due to lack of reason that has consumed and ultimately devoured our values of truth and justice...we are all part of a system that does not value reason, but values money, therefore our communication is in itself flawed...

i can be nothing more than an existential OPINION...i cannot be recognized as a moral agent, because there is no actual two dimensional reality where reason provides a common footing (.i.e. argument)

therefore no dialectival movement can be made and therefore no actual morality exists at all

please read Alisdair Mcintyre's "After Virtue" for further clarification...

that, along with the anything by Nietzsche, some Aristotle, and The Tao Te Ching by Lao Tze will be the most important books you can read...please check them out

I cannot stress how important it is for us to understand our lack of real communication and how grave it is....

Our entire post modern culture exists because of it, from art to seeing two planes slam into the World Trade Center...extreme irony the common theme!

I think Kerry was not angry enough...that is why he did not strick a chord with the disillusioned...that is why he lost the election

It is time for a much more scientific and philosphical approach to resolving our dilemmas

Hey Kafka, open a window, let in some sunshine or something. Sheesh...

For the record, I worked at the polls yesterday as part of Kerry's team of attorneys to make sure that everyone that wanted to vote got the chance to vote. Both of the precincts that were polling at my location turned out over 75% of eligible voters in person -- not counting absentee ballots. It may not be perfect, but I was heartened to see that many people get out to vote, even though I was not a fan of the outcome.

A step in the right direction, at least...

[sacredawe78]

Dystopia is our reality OK??

We can make an inductive argument that Heaven most likely does not exists Ok?? No one has ever been able to prove its existence, from Anselm to Descartes and on and on and on...

I believe a perfect moral system can exist within entropy because we would still die random deaths at the whim of nature, there need only be one variable for entropy to exist

Therefor a perfect moral UTOPIA is possible within our current scientific understanding of nature...we are just energy...but that does not mean we should give up and be fatalistic and nihilistic...we could still avoid humand to human caused suffering, but just wait for the meteor to hit...

death doesnt matter...its the flourshing of the species that does...it does not matter if millions of people keep being born if they endure continued misery

so utopian, yes i am....but it is not a fucking mathematical impossibility...it is not in some other world like these monotheist idiots in Islam and Christianity would love to believe

it can be right here...but i cant happen if we contiue to live in a world based on the individuals proliferation, hoarding of all natural resources, (i.e. capitalism)...it has to be bases on communication, reason, and recognizing that we are a species and our individuality can only be reduced to a small percentage of our genetic component

utopia can happen...it is not caged in a dream, and it does not go against science

[asdf_admin]

You do sound a bit Utopian to me man...

exactly. being an idealist is beautiful, yet it is not real. i would love world peace and harmony yet, i do not expect it. as i have stated before, this world to become one nation we would have to be attacked by aliens.

[asdf_admin]

Peace will never work. It is the Yin and Yang in life. For evil there is good, and for good there is evil.

why did not those books teach you that? it is the most simple philosophy on this planet. Things exist for a reason, you can accept and do as you wish to either prevent or contribute. You may not put mathematical formulas or explanations to life. Life is different to every eye. It is such a random that science can not define it or explain it. You must have a controlled environment to apply science, and we are far from being controlled.