Oh the Hypocrisy of the US

[res0nat0r]

Re: Oh the Hypocrisy of the US

cia?

[Shpira]

Re: Oh the Hypocrisy of the US

The best form of government is one that keeps the most amount of individual rights and liberties vested in the people. Are you going to tell me that monarchies are better (because we all know divine right is bullshit). Are you saying social democracies are better? that totalitarianism-by-default systems (nazism, marxism, fascism) are MORE ideal in terms of preserving rights and liberties in the individual?

Are you seriously telling me that the most ideal system would be one where the individual has fewer rights and liberties? REALLY?

You, Shpira, are the one with the "Frame" problem. Why? Because everything is relative according to you. And when everything is relative, you can have no values or clarity on rights. You are restrained from making any cogent judgment on liberty or freedom. And since you cannot make any rational defense of individuals rights (and therefore any form of totalitarianism and statism goes), the thought that it is "ME" who has the 'frame' problem is simply laughable.

LOL...again...you are framed in your discourse by the ideas that your head gets filled with on a daily basis. Everything IS relative that is precisely the point. The fact that you KNOW for a FACT what makes a perfect government speaks about you more than you might like to think. What ARE rights??? please tell me and who decided and when that they are RIGHTS?
The ultimate goal of a society is to assure progress and happiness of its members...i said that before...and I stand by that. there is no system or idea set in stone and a society should be constantly evolving...not stuck in the past...anyway...there is a major difference in the wiring between me and you. You think there are things which are inherently bad and things which are inherently good...which is just simply NOT the case. The difference is that I am quite happy knowing what i know,,,as I said. Your country your choice fuck or fix up.
The way you are headed right now...you can guess anyway.

[runningman]

Re: Oh the Hypocrisy of the US

Marnier it is going to start with the prisons. Then they will bring in the armored vehicles with sound cannons. Then they will shoot

[Shpira]

Re: Oh the Hypocrisy of the US

that is not my point...but whatever. I am just trying to say that things you take for granted...or even given CAN and should always be re-evaluated constantly. there is no such things as rights...they are a temporary thing that you have and others don't. they can be taken away as easily as they were given...and more "rights" can be given just like the initial ones were awarded.
Anyway...it doesn't really matter...you guys have a point in a sense...I am most certainly a tourist in the fucked up system that we seem to debate continuously while you guys live it. If anyone is going to make any change its you...and since you don't even see a problem...no point debating further.

peace

[88Mariner]

Re: Oh the Hypocrisy of the US

[QUOTE=Shpira;929348]LOL...again...you are framed in your discourse by the ideas that your head gets filled with on a daily basis.[/b]

That's funny, you not only assume my head 'gets' filled (implying that i have no control over what goes into my mind) but that this happens on a 'daily basis' (also laughable, it happens once a week during satellite transmission int my pre-frontal cortex. i hope my subscription is up to date).

Everything IS relative that is precisely the point.

Yes. Anything that promotes death might be good. When governemnt takes your money, is that good? well it's relative. Is a dude who teaches intolerance towards non-muslims a bad dude? Well, i could go either way. If everything is relative, then anything goes. Everything from property confiscation, murder of dissenters, ...actually let's start there:

you can't argue against government-mandated executions of private persons who have differing religious beliefs without due process. You can't make a point that it's wrong or immoral or injust. Why? Because it's all relative. Peace is war. Up is Down. Strength is Weakness. Black is White. Dogs and cats, living together...MASS HYSTERIA!

your problem, among other things, is a teleological one.

The fact that you KNOW for a FACT what makes a perfect government

I know for a fact that treating men as animals subservient to other men is wrong. But then, you can't argue against slavery, because, "It's all relative"!!!!!

speaks about you more than you might like to think.

I'm a champion of motherfucking freedom bro. When the alternative is controlling people via divine inspiration or psuedo-intellectual hypothesizing, you can always find me fighting against people like you. Shpira the slave-owner.

What ARE rights??? please tell me and who decided and when that they are RIGHTS?

Rights are the freedom to act. If the government tells me I can't have an ice cream cone, it's taking rights away. that you didn't know this proves you don't even belong in this thread. Or this forum.

How about i help you out: your right to do something ends when someone else's rights begins. My right to swing my arm ends at your face. My right to walk wherever i please, ends at your property. This will not make sense to you, but for others following along, I'm sure it will. I hope.

The ultimate goal of a society is to assure progress and happiness of its members

Let me borrow one of your phrases: HOW DO YOU KNOW????? IT"S ALL RELATIVE!!!! Maybe to someone else the goal of society is to kill off humans. Afterall, there are plenty of people who see humanity as a virus that needs to be destroyed.

Over the years, I've come to learn that anyone who speaks that society exists to promote progress actually demands each individual act as a slave to that end. Again, why do you promote such slavery? Why can't people be free......and why must people exist for others?

...i said that before...and I stand by that.

of course you do. your weak-sauce world view and great pessimism towards liberty itself pretty much demands you stand by slavery.

there is no system or idea set in stone and a society should be constantly evolving

oh really? evolving what? what rights you have one day should be different than the next? is your conceptualization of 'society evolving' have to do with the slow elimination of individual rights? Because it seems that your idea of 'evolving' is more about regression towards the dark history of humanity.

...not stuck in the past

that's precisely where you intend to take people.

..anyway...there is a major difference in the wiring between me and you.

oh so you're excusing your intellectual weakness on genetics? that's funny, i was fairly sure you thought that everyone is the same, everyone has equal abilities, everyone has equal skills, and that it is individual freedom that forces inequality among people.

You think there are things which are inherently bad and things which are inherently good

Yeah, I tend to think that when one group of people (let's call them a government) gets to decide (by standards of their choosing) to take away (read: steal) property owned by another group of people (let's call them citizens) that's an inherently bad thing.

You can interchange the word 'property' with the words "rights" "life" and so forth.


[quote]...which is just simply NOT the case.[p/quote]

Of course, to you, that could NEVER be the truth of what it is. Because your illusions of utopian purity could never mean that is true. Again, teleological problems are ones you must MUST address first.

Allow me to diverge from your comments and explain this further:

To teleologists like yourself, the inhumanity brought forth through communism, nazism, fascism, totalitarianism, despotism, theocracies, and even the majority groups squashing the rights of minority groups....to you....none of that matters. No amount of history-smacking-you-in-the-face will change your opinion on this.

WHY?

Because, what matters to you is that your 'utopian' views are nothing but a beautiful idea, pure, and untarnished.

It’s how things should be.

The ways in which socialism is implemented and worked out to be, is purely distinctive from how [i]you[/] think it should work. Because if we did it 'your way' we would undoubtedly have a utopia. And the fact that every time your visions have been attempted, it has resulted in death, destruction, and poverty. And it pretty much never returns to normalcy. A bit like how if you cut down a giant oak tree at its base, the best you can hope for is a few sapplings to sprout out and up.....but it will never be that mighty oak tree ever again....it's not possible.

I would so much as guess that right now, you're thinking, "but they didn't implement it right!!!!!!" And this is expected. Because a long string of failures don't matter to you....because you fundamentally believe that such failures don't make a difference.

The difference is that I am quite happy knowing what i know

Why, how could I possibly found a more perfect segue from my last sentence above!!! lmao

,,,as I said. Your country your choice fuck or fix up.

eh? fix the structure of our government?

The way you are headed right now...you can guess anyway.

yeah, we are headed exactly towards your ideals. on a speeding train. you should be fucking enjoying the movie and cheering the train. and that's because people like you are running my government. "who cares if x y or z fails and collapses the economy, WE had GOOD INTENTIONS!"

[88Mariner]

Re: Oh the Hypocrisy of the US

Marnier it is going to start with the prisons. Then they will bring in the armored vehicles with sound cannons. Then they will shoot

yes, anytime anyone has used the national guard, civilians are murdered. gimme a call when the prisoners need food and control. i'll send in.....volunteers.

[runningman]

Re: Oh the Hypocrisy of the US

it didn't work so well for the black people in Katrina did it?

[88Mariner]

Re: Oh the Hypocrisy of the US

that is not my point...but whatever. I am just trying to say that things you take for granted

you are saying stupid shit. For example:

there is no such things as rights

indeed, slavemaster. tell me what i should think. what work i should do. who to vote for. ad nauseum/infinitum.

...[rights] they are a temporary thing that you have and others don't.

yes, there are only x amount of rights, and when one person has them, another person is deprived of it.

they can be taken away as easily as they were given

facepalm. you just said rights don't exist. but now they do exist and are transferable licenses to act?

...and more "rights" can be given just like the initial ones were awarded.

again, facepalm. see above.

Anyway...it doesn't really matter

of course not. nothing matters.

rights don't always exist, and when they do, they don't matter.

...you guys have a point in a sense

but it's all relative right? so even having a point means that the opposite is also equally true.

...I am most certainly a tourist in the fucked up system that we seem to debate continuously while you guys live it.

oh poor us. tell us how awesome your government censorship is. lmao

If anyone is going to make any change its you...and since you don't even see a problem...no point debating further.

brb, giving up everything and being sequestered to a cage, given what i need according to what i contribute to society.

peace

[88Mariner]

Re: Oh the Hypocrisy of the US

it didn't work so well for the black people in Katrina did it?

Yeah, they would have been better off if the national guard didn't even bother.

Personally, i saw it strange that so many people STAYED in lieu of the week and a half of warnings and shit. it's not like it came out of nowhere.

"Knock know"

"who's there?"

"me"

"Opens door"

KATRINA OUT OF NOWHERE!


tell me runningman, how many citizens did they snipe in the superdome? just curious.

[vinnie97]

Re: Oh the Hypocrisy of the US

They gun-confiscated law-abiding citizens, though, which is the govt. stepping in and trampling people's rights. It's another case of precedent being set.

[runningman]

Re: Oh the Hypocrisy of the US

they ddin't have to snipe anyone in the Metrodome. They just let them die of dehydration.

Also poor people had no choice but to stay. If you didn't have a car and if you did have one didn't have any money for gas. You were stuck.

[res0nat0r]

Re: Oh the Hypocrisy of the US

the canadian govt should have stepped in and fixed shit imo.

[Shpira]

Re: Oh the Hypocrisy of the US

That's funny, you not only assume my head 'gets' filled (implying that i have no control over what goes into my mind) but that this happens on a 'daily basis' (also laughable, it happens once a week during satellite transmission int my pre-frontal cortex. i hope my subscription is up to date).

No but you dismissing things like communism as pure evil when in reality you know jack shit about just like you know jack shit about che. You got your info from a red scare pamphlet which you read whilst taking a dump.

What i meant to say is that you have these established ideas in your society that are never questioned and if they are the individual who brought that up is discredited as some kind of a loony. If you want to joke about it go ahead...i personally find it funnier...as you live it.

Yes. Anything that promotes death might be good. When governemnt takes your money, is that good? well it's relative. Is a dude who teaches intolerance towards non-muslims a bad dude? Well, i could go either way. If everything is relative, then anything goes. Everything from property confiscation, murder of dissenters, ...actually let's start there:

yes. The "dude" is not "bad"....those are ABSOLUTE terms. Precisely those kind of terms are the start of wars and intolerance...good vs bad etc...just like a deranged president once framed it...
its all relative. There is a socially accepted view of what is good and bad and that is diametricaly opposite in different countries, religions etc...what makes your good better than someone else or your bad worse than their bad??? Who gave YOU the power to decide what values are set in stone? Teachers in your school taught racial hatred 50 years ago...were they bad man? you are basically full of crap mate...no fucking clue.

you can't argue against government-mandated executions of private persons who have differing religious beliefs without due process. You can't make a point that it's wrong or immoral or injust. Why? Because it's all relative. Peace is war. Up is Down. Strength is Weakness. Black is White. Dogs and cats, living together...MASS HYSTERIA!

again you are just being retarded...read this and tell me what else can one say to such a rant?

your problem, among other things, is a teleological one

.

ever heard of the "end of history"? I do not have any problems that you know of lol
Or maybe you want to clarify this?

I know for a fact that treating men as animals subservient to other men is wrong. But then, you can't argue against slavery, because, "It's all relative"!!!!!

How do you "know"? Again did your father/grand father know this when he was a young man??
My guess would be no for at least one...because your society and its values EVOLVED.

and in 50 years who knows we may be killing people due to over population and no one will say a word because it will be the norm....again proving that its ALL RELATIVE. fuck i am getting sick of this shit...

I'm a champion of motherfucking freedom bro. When the alternative is controlling people via divine inspiration or psuedo-intellectual hypothesizing, you can always find me fighting against people like you. Shpira the slave-owner.

You are? Really? Than why the fuck are you online? There are such outright crimes against freedom happening right now in your country and you are not doing jack shit about it...instead you are "championing" freedom on an internet forum...please...give me a break.

Rights are the freedom to act. If the government tells me I can't have an ice cream cone, it's taking rights away. that you didn't know this proves you don't even belong in this thread. Or this forum.

How about i help you out: your right to do something ends when someone else's rights begins. My right to swing my arm ends at your face. My right to walk wherever i please, ends at your property. This will not make sense to you, but for others following along, I'm sure it will. I hope.

to answer simply. NO.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rights

Throughout you find references of ARGUMENTS ...there is no set definition because the idea is constantly being contested as it should be...but not by intellectual giants such as yourself.

For example...you can even argue that it is your RIGHT to kill someone...but for that right you pay a fee...in time spent in prison or money on a lawyer...its an equally valid argument to yours...because its all fucking bullshit.
You seem to think that there is a set of divine rights or something...?

Let me borrow one of your phrases: HOW DO YOU KNOW????? IT"S ALL RELATIVE!!!! Maybe to someone else the goal of society is to kill off humans. Afterall, there are plenty of people who see humanity as a virus that needs to be destroyed.

Not sure where this fits in? We generally have hospitals for sick people over here...don't you have that over there or are they just fried for being "bad"?

Over the years, I've come to learn that anyone who speaks that society exists to promote progress actually demands each individual act as a slave to that end. Again, why do you promote such slavery? Why can't people be free......and why must people exist for others?

you are being obtuse...because we all co-exist and the thing you do today will impact me and my children and my children children....not to mention everything else. Its all interconnected. So some kind of system is necessary to make sure that all the things that we are lucky to have today sill be here in a 10 or 1000 years...pretty fucking obvious...

of course you do. your weak-sauce world view and great pessimism towards liberty itself pretty much demands you stand by slavery

. ok

oh really? evolving what? what rights you have one day should be different than the next? is your conceptualization of 'society evolving' have to do with the slow elimination of individual rights? Because it seems that your idea of 'evolving' is more about regression towards the dark history of humanity.

I already addressed this above...i can't believe that you are sooo ignorant...i am sorry but there is nothing else that i can call that.

that's precisely where you intend to take people

.
I am not taking anyone anywhere mate...you must visit a professional.

oh so you're excusing your intellectual weakness on genetics? that's funny, i was fairly sure you thought that everyone is the same, everyone has equal abilities, everyone has equal skills, and that it is individual freedom that forces inequality among people

.

No i am excusing your warped world view, lack of historical knowledge, lack of anything new or any coherent idea on your education, society, tv etc...all those sources of information that shaped your young brain before it was capable to filter information (assuming it is capable now)

Yeah, I tend to think that when one group of people (let's call them a government) gets to decide (by standards of their choosing) to take away (read: steal) property owned by another group of people (let's call them citizens) that's an inherently bad thing.

You can interchange the word 'property' with the words "rights" "life" and so forth.

so if they can cure cancer but that means that you can't eat ice cream ever...thats an "inherently bad thing" right...
again...lack of any real understanding...you just shit on your mouth and your keyboard turns it into words.


[quote]...which is just simply NOT the case.[p/quote]

Of course, to you, that could NEVER be the truth of what it is. Because your illusions of utopian purity could never mean that is true. Again, teleological problems are ones you must MUST address first.

Allow me to diverge from your comments and explain this further:

To teleologists like yourself, the inhumanity brought forth through communism, nazism, fascism, totalitarianism, despotism, theocracies, and even the majority groups squashing the rights of minority groups....to you....none of that matters. No amount of history-smacking-you-in-the-face will change your opinion on this.

not really sure you actually understand the meaning of the word...

WHY?

Because, what matters to you is that your 'utopian' views are nothing but a beautiful idea, pure, and untarnished.

It’s how things [I]should be.[/I

] more bullshit...your presumptions entirely...never mentioned any of this. This is actually a good example of what i was saying above...you have been conditioned to associate certain ideas with others...and even you are incapable of identifying this.

The ways in which socialism is implemented and worked out to be, is purely distinctive from how [i]you[/] think it should work. Because if we did it 'your way' we would undoubtedly have a utopia. And the fact that every time your visions have been attempted, it has resulted in death, destruction, and poverty. And it pretty much never returns to normalcy. A bit like how if you cut down a giant oak tree at its base, the best you can hope for is a few sapplings to sprout out and up.....but it will never be that mighty oak tree ever again....it's not possible.

LOL at this whole paragraph..."my ideas" you have no clue what my ideas are let alone that any of what i believe in was ever applied. Again you are associating one thing to another...just because I admire one person for one trait they posses does not mean that i agree with everything else. Once again your absolute world view comes into play and your delusions run havoc

I would so much as guess that right now, you're thinking, "but they didn't implement it right!!!!!!" And this is expected. Because a long string of failures don't matter to you....because you fundamentally believe that such failures don't make a difference.

once again...I MUST advise you to visit a therapist.

eh? fix the structure of our government?

yeah, we are headed exactly towards your ideals. on a speeding train. you should be fucking enjoying the movie and cheering the train. and that's because people like you are running my government. "who cares if x y or z fails and collapses the economy, WE had GOOD INTENTIONS!"

This doesn't even make sense! Ruin the economy? If you presume (as you clearly do) that i am some kind of left hardliner with a portrait of Stalin above my bed you still couldn't argue that such a society would go bankrupt. Where in the hell did you get that? More conditioning coming into play.



This is what i mean by wiring...you are INCAPABLE of separating yourself from your nation state and the ideas that have been force fed to you from all sides hence you are a SLAVE and you will never be free...


If any kind of socialist society was introduced...(and please look up the meaning to the word "socialist") who would be the ones that stand to loose the most? All the large privately owned businesses such but not exclusive...your media outlets...so if there is once thing ALL big business in the US agreed upon during WW2 its that communism must be stopped at ALL cost and you my friend are the champion of their cause. Good luck to you...

[res0nat0r]

Re: Oh the Hypocrisy of the US

words...words...more words.

Socialism wont work because people are inherently self centered and mainly only looking out for #1. End of story.

[88Mariner]

Re: Oh the Hypocrisy of the US

they ddin't have to snipe anyone in the Metrodome. They just let them die of dehydration.

Also poor people had no choice but to stay. If you didn't have a car and if you did have one didn't have any money for gas. You were stuck.

I completely agree, actually.

I think we should NOT have sent in the national guard. Like you said, look how many people died of dehydration!

Next time something like this comes along, i think we should keep the national guard at home.

And I think people should take responsibility for their lives instead of letting some national guard troop take control of their destiny.