Pope insults Muslims

[malayday]

Re: Pope insults Muslims

haha...no way brother you have every right to your view...and it makes me all warm and fuzzy to know that people actually do care and listen...initially i also felt like no one really was listening to each other and just harping on about thier own shit...

your totaly right when you say that this is the value of debate...i hope that everyone who reads feels that because the only way we are ever going to progress and change and affect the world is through this sort of process..sometimes i feel like i shouldnt even say anything because it seems worthless, but you have (to my absolute delight) proven me wrong and i cannot be more gratefull for that miro...i truely appreciate your honesty and admire your courage to step away form your ego because thats not easy...

ofcourse i know that we may probabely still disagree on a lot of things...but i would like to think that is the only way we can really gain a better perspective...

[Miroslav]

Re: Pope insults Muslims

^^^ second that... Malayday, I have to admit that at the very beginning I felt pretty harshly towards your comments and it probably came through in my responses. But as the conversations continue and I consider your thoughts carefully, I have to say that you raise some interesting points that do help me consider a different perspective. That's the value of debate...so props for that!

...not to say that I don't still disagree on some things, though

[Lorn]

Re: Pope insults Muslims

Very thought provoking ideas from everyone. Great discussion between sightless and malayday. Bravo for keeping it civil.

[Bululu]

Re: Pope insults Muslims

^^^^^^^ Anger is still in you man , camel land what a nice way to debate.

[malayday]

Re: Pope insults Muslims

ok..lives of soldiers needs to be out of the equasion..if soldiers are targetted you cant call it terrorism or whatever,

and inoocent people are dying because of u.s (direct or encouraged) sanctions and policy and have been for a while...i dont know i dont see the difference between slowly crippling and economy and starving its people after your done with them and killing someone in a building which represents all that is missing from your country and that you and your family and your families family will suffer because of....
yes it is cowardly..no one if defending or denying...but i think a little perpective is necessary...
if they dont want to accept the world i say fuk em too...but putting them behind bars or isolating them some how is an ostrich policy it simply cannot work...i wish they did not exist either..but there is a reason they do and it simply is not becaue they hate or despise the 'western values and way of life'...all this hatred doesnt come out of no where...

i mean take you for example...i say 6 years ago you wouldnt be saying all this shit about muslims and extremism the way you do...why?...because it obviously had affected your life directly...it has had an impact and left an ugly impression...this has fueled the fire and incited your disdain, rightly so....to the point that your willing to bust some shit up if it happens again right?....i mean you keep talking of how your gonna fuk em up and go to jail..you seem ready to pay the price...face any concequence...

you have a good job..atleast it gives good money so you can live and be happy and your family is not in need and you dont have to worry about thier security as much...im sure the traumatic shock that you recieved because of the attack would have scarred your sense of security, non the less....
compare that to a poor person living somewhere in afghanistan or iraq or palestine or chechnia or north africa or whatever, no job, atleast not one which can satisfy, not enough food, your country doesnt seem to be doing much for you, your life is full of uncertainty and hardship...and all sorts of bullshit..
could you be able to empathise with this persons desire to 'fuk em up'...i think you could sean because you know what its like except the essential difference in your daily life and the Al- Zee (who ever young muslim in that part of the world) is that you still hAve things you can look forward to..or atleast things which will distract you or keep you occupied...if those were not there i bet you would want to take action againts the percieved reasons you have for the state you, your familiy, your loved ones, your friends...are all in...

[thesightless]

Re: Pope insults Muslims

because they intend to revert it. and the more outside parties get involved, the more we have to regret it with the lives of our soldiers and the lives of innocents in NY, nadrid, and london. put up a fence, and say goodbye to those who dont want to accept what the world outside of camel land has to say.

[malayday]

Re: Pope insults Muslims

a couple of journal articles and speculation and allegations....and what is the killing gay people and men wearing shorts bit about...i dont think any man wear shorts in iraq and the gay people probabely arent roaming around in rainbow coloured tanktops...
plus all this shit that happened to thes alleged bombers and alleged terrosrists is the same that has happened in guantanamo minus the death sentencing...

im in no way endoring or justifying this soçalled 'ethinic cleansing' just giving my take on it...and i fail to understand how this could be one of the reasons you think that these crazy bitches should be isolated form the rest of society...

[thesightless]

Re: Pope insults Muslims

right here is a prime example why i am holding the view i do. (add in economic reasons) http://www.timesonline.co.uk/printFr...5978-6,00.html

also here

[malayday]

Re: Pope insults Muslims

yeah but whatver the case...in any hostage situation what do you do ...youve seen the movies...thatsno excuse for what they did..infrastructure and all...it was overtly fukin ridiculously vicious and destructive..

(they used phospherous bombs continued after saying they wouldnt hit a un travel caravan after it got permission from them like people with white flags on thier hoods and shit...gone.over..finished)..and thats why the crazy bastard gained support and thats one of the reasons why there were alot of people there..thats what i was adressing....because of the comparison you were making..if you make these comparisons then youll see a congruency in the solution and it not the way to deal with it..
history serves us little here...crusades included..we can tit or tat about to much shit thats happened in the past..
this crap..this anger this frusteration this powerlessness this hopelessness and oppression this shit..all this shit is now..lets talk about now and what need to be done and stop the finger pointing....without making parables..

[thesightless]

Re: Pope insults Muslims

1. i happily disagree. but we are entitled to that. dont mean i lost respect for your views.
2. the difference is that while they think isreal is the devil, they cant seem to grasp history and fact that they are the ones who nearly destroyed jewish society in the region through a hundred years of violent expansion. and everytime someone quotes christianity nad catholicism in particular for the crusades, they need to quite literally be hit in the head with a textbook, if it hasnt been burned by the clerics minions, because the crusades that were violent (2-4) were a direct response to the muslim expansion, which was done violently. so shame on the romans for standing up for themselves.
3. no one else reacts like this, not any religion, not any social group, no one. if blacks, spanish, indians, asians have thier values insulted, they dont go apeshit. im sorry, but the facts and events are out there, and like i said, when a voice steps up for moderation and peace, ill change my opinion, i am not saying that we need to religiously cleanse a region, but im not seeing any major departure from the brutal ways the region conducts itself.

you just had syria's president saying no one outside the middle east has a vision for the region, when HIS COUNTRY was one of the groups responsible for arming hezzbollah and encouraging them to use lebanese residential areas as bases because nearly every international treaty prevents attacking civilians, but do they care? not at all. go read on BBC the 'have your say'' about the conflict and there are numerous lebanese people telling how hezbollah fighters would come into thier homes and hold the families there while they staged attacks from the hosues.

[malayday]

Re: Pope insults Muslims

ok i sympathise obvouisly its a personal thing for you....but i still say that would make you no different than any one of them if that is what your reaction would be...and about the nazrallah rally..if this is about hezbollah leader (because i think thats who we are talking about) and the rally i think your talking about...come on man...that place did you see it...peoples lives completely destroyed...family members lost...best friends lost...no more homes..no more money...and if a group comes to you after your govermnet fails miserably and say "hay..see look they dont give a fuck about you..see america is the devil..israle is the devill..just like i said..see..look for yourself...... but we care..look ill even give you 3000 dollars for now so you can eat and live and maybe start rebeuilding your house...and i promise to rebuild your community the best i can..." your telling me yur not going to go and hear this guy speak and support him?...the kids were probabely there because they HAD NO HOME to be in....

the dickheads taking to the streets on queens blvd are fukwits...they just frusterated confused fuks man...fuk em...

[thesightless]

Re: Pope insults Muslims

yes, but to use the nazi comparision, when they hold rallies, only a few hundred (if that) show up, and for the most part, people find them disgusting. when nazrallah has a rally, 600,000 ppl show up with thier kids and the whole country cheers. so yes, it is WAY BEYOND extremist elements and is into a social ideal of bringing down anything not geared toward sharia. when i have to walk down queens BLVD on a saturday, and watch the islamic thinkers society burn my flag, scream at the hasidics from the area, and in general get in the faces of everyone outside of queens center mall.... im disgusted. and on 911, i dont need to see/hear people waiving palestinian flags in the streets cheering that 3K ppl just died. if that shit happens again, like i said, ill go to jail.

[malayday]

Re: Pope insults Muslims

these are not racists though...the elements that are driving these extremist revolutionaries are not being effectlively dealt with...im sure you will agree that nazis still exist today...literally and metaphorically....so no matter what the so called "international commmunity" intends to do..simply will not work...there can be no imposed peace..there can be no 2 dollar solution....the way its being dealt with is just not it...

[Lorn]

Re: Pope insults Muslims

^and unfortunately we all know what had to be done in the end.

[Miroslav]

Re: Pope insults Muslims

as do i miro....your right about the saudi's...and im sure they will be other countries in which youll find this sort of oppression and what not....whatever the cause be though...to boil it down to islam is where my objection lies...to boil it down to the religion itself is wrong...there are muslims or people who call themselves muslims....and there is islam....two distinct things...
so yes while these so-called muslims pinch and pillage and cause all sorts of havoc...it is not islam which is at fault...it is them...and sometimes i find that the two bleed into each other for people here...it all just amalgamates and synthesizes into one all encompassing 'thing'...and thats what i object to and have been objecting to for the past few months....

I do agree with you. Islam in accordance to its truest theoretical intent is not at fault. I do, however, also agree with Sean's point insofar as some of the actual trends that seem to be expanding within many Islamic societies - whether you want to call that a perverted interpretation of Islam, or just some other cultural issues - are becoming a serious problem. And to the extent that these trends continue to expand and threaten other nations, they will have to be dealt with... Much like German nazism ended up being an issue that had to be dealt with by the international community..