VP Debate

[LobsterClan]

Re: VP Debate

Why u guys can't accept facts for what they are is beyond me. Its time to get off the sinking ship and forget the democratic party. During the 90s, it wasn't very good to be a republican if u wanted the presidency...This decade will continue to belong to the republicans, until the democrats stop trying to scare/b.s. their way into the presidency.

Well guess what, buddy? According to the latest poll, it is in fact the Democrats with the lead, 50-46. http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmp...sident_ap_poll

Really ridiculous how an incumbent, lame duck president with an under 50 approval rating is somehow considered the favorite, despite history showing those types of presidents always lose.


As for your bs and lying, that is all the Republican party does. I mentioned several places where Cheney was guilty of that exact sentiment, and no one has yet tried to refute those facts. I'd love to see you try and spin some of the bullshit he puked up, like the way he claimed never mentioning a link between Iraq and al Qaeda.

[neur0t0xin64]

Re: VP Debate

Showing up for a breakfast where no votes are cast is clearly no excuse to miss 70% of potential votes. Frankly i'm glad he and Kerry don't show up to vote b/c Kerry = 1st and Edwards = 3rd for most liberal senators decided by a nonpartisan group! Another attempt by liberals to catch Cheney in a "lie" and overseeing the LOGIC!

get real, u guys are going to lose....the american people cant be fooled that easily

Jesus, obviously when the two have been running for president, they're going to be missing a lot of votes. What is Cheney's excuse for only showing up twice to lead the Senate? And if you look at the voting record, they've always participated in votes that are close.

Furthermore, the crap about "most liberal senator" is total and utter BULLSHIT. If you ask me, neither of them are liberal enough, and after listening to Edwards last night go on about "gay marriage" you are a total and complete idiot if you think he is a liberal.

Instead of repeating, tired, incorrect Republican talking points, why don't you try doing a little research and find things out for yourself. You can start with this site right here: http://mostliberalsenator.blogspot.com/

Even if the 70% absent voting record was for the last 6 months, he should still be TRYING to do his job...that is cast votes and attend committee meetings for his state. Becoming a senator isn't a free ticket to waste taxpayer money on a political campaign. Again, all the liberals will do is oversee the LOGIC. Why u guys can't accept facts for what they are is beyond me. Its time to get off the sinking ship and forget the democratic party. During the 90s, it wasn't very good to be a republican if u wanted the presidency...This decade will continue to belong to the republicans, until the democrats stop trying to scare/b.s. their way into the presidency.

BTW...Edwards isn't stupid. He knows that 1% of Americans would bother to vote on gay marriage, and lots more than that will vote against it. To side with gay marriage is political suicide.

I will concede that however they decide "most liberal" and "most conservative" is rather subjective...so i'll let it go....But maybe if the guys showed up a bit more to vote we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Also, overwhelming support to authorize going to war is HARDLY a close vote! They should've skipped out and gone windsurfing or gotten a fake tan.

In today's world: Liberals are Booers :cry: , Conservatives are Doers

[toasty]

Re: VP Debate

all i keep hearing from that camp on security is, "We will hunt down and kill the terrorists!"

how?

Probably roughly the same way that Bush has, ultimately. There is one thing that Kerry brings to the table that Bush cannot, however, and that is the potential to bring other countries into the fold. I don't know that Kerry will be successful, but Bush cannot now go to other countries that are not currently part of the Iraq effort, for example, and ask them to participate because he has already burned too many bridges. Kerry can at least ask.

Bush cannot (and would not) go to Germany, for example, and say, "look, this whole war thing was a collossal mistake, but I've fucked up things so badly now that it affects your security as well, so could you please come help us?" Kerry is not bound by his own past in this regard and may be able to restore some credibility to the effort. Even though he has said "wrong war, wrong time," (as Bush pointed out ad nauseum) he can still make the case that the situation is fucked up without really losing too much face, that an international effort is needed to unfuck it, and that it is in other countries' best interests to do so to regain some stability in the Mideast.

Looking beyond Iraq to the global war on terror, I think the same principle applies. Bush has destroyed the "we're all in this together" vibe that was going on in the world following 9/11 and pushed away countries who could be strong allies in gathering and sharing information and rounding up terrorists wherever they may be. As long as Bush is in office, the anti-Bush, anti-American feeling around the world will not help our efforts in this regard.

Can Kerry actually bring back global respectability to the USA and restore old alliances? I honestly don't know -- but I am certain that Bush cannot.

[toasty]

Re: VP Debate

Edwards and Cheney have such different styles, it is tough, I think, to say that one person "won," b/c it is difficult to be sure you are comparing apples to apples. Cheney (unlike his boss) is extremely well-versed in policy issues and came armed with the information you would expect from someone with his kind of experience. He presented his responses in a very straight-forward, matter-of-fact sort of way that gives him an air of credibility. I thought the format played to his strengths well.

Edwards, on the other hand, brings a more upbeat air and had decent enough grip on the issues to talk intelligently. I also found him to be more persuassive, likeable, and forward-looking, but he didn't say as much substantively as Cheney.

I would call the debate a tie or maybe a slight edge to Cheney for his obvious vast knowledge, but I think that actually gives the edge to Edwards in the big picture in that there was more on the line for Bush/Cheney. The Bush/Cheney campaign has been trying to regain their traction since the first debate. By not getting his ass kicked and holding his own, I think Edwards accomplished what he needed to accomplish by not allowing Bush/Cheney to regain any momentum.

One could argue that Cheney stopped the bleeding, but it will ultimately be much ado about nothing because there is such a short news cycle before the next debate tomorrow and not a lot of time to really allow Bush or Cheney to capitalize on it. I think history will ultimately look back on this debate and say that it played very little role in the outcome of this election.

My $.02, anyway.

[BSully828]

Re: VP Debate

That was great - Cheney accidentally telling the nation to check out a anti-Bush website. He probably lobbed some f-bombs around after he figured that one out.

[mixu]

Re: VP Debate

I liked the fact that Cheney quoted the wrong website...

The two candidates performed true to their highly contrasting characters. Mr Cheney was downbeat and occasionally contemptuous of his opponent, declining to address at all many criticisms involving Halliburton's no-bid contracts in Iraq. Instead he simply pointed the audience to a website - although, embarrassingly, the address he gave - factcheck.com - was incorrect, and linked to an anti-Bush site run by the philanthropist George Soros, rather than to the site he meant to promote, factcheck.org.

https://www.guardian.co.uk/uselections2004/story/0,,1320825,00.html

[BSully828]

Re: VP Debate

Considering the fact that we're already doing most of those things - I'd say Kerry's got the right idea.

[Jenks]

that stuff is funny.

you go JFK!

[LobsterClan]

Re: VP Debate

it's dam hard for Edwards to make people believe that he and Kerry are really going to make a difference in the War on Terror and Iraq.

all i keep hearing from that camp on security is, "We will hunt down and kill the terrorists!"

how?

Why don't you try reading his website? It's rather simple to remember: http://www.johnkerry.com

Here is an excerpt from his plan against Global Terrorism:

V. DENY TERRORISTS SAFE HAVENS AND NEW RECRUITS. John Kerry knows that to win the war on terror, America must use all elements of national power to deny terrorists new havens and recruits and prevent terrorists from poisoning minds around the world. America must show that we are willing to use our economic power for the common good; to defeat abject poverty and disease that destroy lives and create failed states in every part of the world.

Work to Prevent Weak and Failing States from Becoming Terrorist Havens. Kerry will work with our allies and the international community to develop comprehensive strategies to strengthen weak states and secure and rebuild failed states around the world.

Strategically Target Assistance to Weak and Failed States. As president, Kerry will provide strategically focused assistance to weak and failed states to help them build democratic institutions, better secure their territories, and achieve broad-based economic development. Kerry will help them increase their capacity to meet the needs of their citizens for decent, basic education, basic health and disease prevention services and support the development of small and medium-size enterprises.
Develop Rapid Response Capacity. John Kerry will develop an enlarged country-in-transition fund to enable the U.S. government to respond swiftly to crises and opportunities in weak and failed states. With our allies, we will also support initiatives to increase the capacity of developing countries and regional organizations such as the African Union and ASEAN to respond rapidly with peacekeeping force to prevent and resolve conflicts. The United States must provide the leadership needed for this effort to really succeed.
Refocus Diplomatic, Intelligence and Other Assets on Failed States. The 2002 National Security Strategy stated: ?America is now threatened less by conquering states than we are by failing ones.? Yet the Bush administration?s distribution of our diplomatic, intelligence and other assets does not reflect that. A Kerry administration will ensure that America has the best intelligence possible on weak and failed states.
Share Burden with Allies and International Community. America cannot bear the burden of strengthening weak states and securing and rebuilding failed states around the world alone ? our allies, regional powers and international institutions must also do their share. Kerry will rebuild our alliances and bring others in the international community together to address the risks that failed states pose to people all over the world.
Lead a Global Education Initiative. Under a new Global Education Initiative, America will lead the world to provide universal basic education by 2015. It is critical that we not only seek to empower reformers to achieve quality public education through the Arab and Muslim world ? where a lack of funding has helped foster radical schools that teach hate ? but that we also support a global effort for free universal education throughout Africa and the developing world. Increasing education in poor nations ? especially for girls ? has been shown to be extremely effective in raising incomes, reducing infant mortality and preventing the spread of HIV/AIDS.
Cancel the Debt of the World?s Poorest Countries. John Kerry supports wiping clean the debts of the world?s most heavily indebted poor countries (HIPC) that are reforming their economies and investing in their human capital. Debt relief will give them a fresh start to invest in health, education, and infrastructure. And Kerry will direct his Secretary of the Treasury to initiate negotiations with the Paris Club of Official Creditors, the World Bank, the IMF, and others with the goal of modifying the Enhanced Heavily Indebted Poor Countries Initiative to provide substantially greater debt reduction to a broader set of poor countries. Kerry understands that debt cancellation should not come at the expense of future foreign aid flows to poor countries.
Address Global Health Priorities. Epidemics can decimate societies and contribute to weak and failed states, which can become safe havens and recruiting grounds for terrorists and other criminal elements. John Kerry will invest more in health care infrastructure in weak and failing states, and dedicate greater attention and increased resources to training health care professionals and community health care workers. As president, Kerry will double the U.S. funding to fight AIDS, Tuberculosis and Malaria to $30 billion by 2008 and encourage other countries, corporations and foundations to do their share. And in a Kerry administration, global health policy will be driven by science instead of ideology.
VI. SUPPORT DEMOCRACIES IN THE ARAB AND MUSLIM WORLD. We must support the development of free and democratic societies in the Arab and Muslim world to win the war of ideas. While countries like Egypt and Saudi Arabia, Pakistan and Uzbekistan, have at times helped us in the hunt for individual terrorists, they have not always been good allies in turning back the terrorists? cause. In a Kerry administration, America will be clear with repressive governments in the region that we expect to see them change, not just for our sake but for their own survival. And Kerry will restore America?s moral authority by leading by example and by promoting respect for the rule of law.

Launch a Major Public Diplomacy Initiative. Kerry will lead a major initiative in public diplomacy to train a new generation of American scholars, diplomats, military officers, and democracy builders who understand the Arab and Muslim world, just as we built our knowledge of the Soviet empire during the Cold War. And Kerry will open diplomatic posts and invest in academic programs, scholarships and exchanges with the Muslim world so we can build better bridges and craft more effective policies.
Convene a Summit to Increase Mutual Cooperation. As president, John Kerry will convene ? and attend ? a summit with European partners and leaders from the Muslim world to discuss how we can collectively work together to establish new programs aimed at increasing mutual understanding, economic growth, and the fight against terror.
VII. RESTORE ALLIANCES TO COMBAT TERRORIST NETWORKS ACROSS THE GLOBE. Kerry will ensure that America always remains the world?s paramount military power. He will also restore alliances to magnify our power, and increase intelligence and law enforcement coordination so that we can stop terrorists hidden around the world before they can strike at us.

[LobsterClan]

Re: VP Debate

Showing up for a breakfast where no votes are cast is clearly no excuse to miss 70% of potential votes. Frankly i'm glad he and Kerry don't show up to vote b/c Kerry = 1st and Edwards = 3rd for most liberal senators decided by a nonpartisan group! Another attempt by liberals to catch Cheney in a "lie" and overseeing the LOGIC!

get real, u guys are going to lose....the american people cant be fooled that easily

Jesus, obviously when the two have been running for president, they're going to be missing a lot of votes. What is Cheney's excuse for only showing up twice to lead the Senate? And if you look at the voting record, they've always participated in votes that are close.

Furthermore, the crap about "most liberal senator" is total and utter BULLSHIT. If you ask me, neither of them are liberal enough, and after listening to Edwards last night go on about "gay marriage" you are a total and complete idiot if you think he is a liberal.

Instead of repeating, tired, incorrect Republican talking points, why don't you try doing a little research and find things out for yourself. You can start with this site right here: http://mostliberalsenator.blogspot.com/

[Jenks]

Re: VP Debate

it's dam hard for Edwards to make people believe that he and Kerry are really going to make a difference in the War on Terror and Iraq.

all i keep hearing from that camp on security is, "We will hunt down and kill the terrorists!"

how?

[digitalghostx]

Re: VP Debate

I think both men did as well as they could, but I think Edwards came out more nice, friendly and personable and Cheney seemed very serious and direct. I think Edwards didn't really get any good jabs in, but he presented the Kerry/Edwards political points well enough. Cheney certainly brought his experience to bear on the situation which Edwards humbly admitted he was lacking (good for him). The problem is I think people are voting mostly on security issues and I think if that is a measure of the debate, then I think Cheney won, it's dam hard for Edwards to make people believe that he and Kerry are really going to make a difference in the War on Terror and Iraq.

[Jenks]

I am both SHOCKED and OUTRAGED at the voting record of Edwards and Kerry. I am equally "" and "" at their approach to defending this country...which i'm not even quite clear what it is. And THAT is my biggest problem with those two.

look, i'm not saying Cheney is an angel here, nor am i saying Edwards did bad. If this was a contest to see who contributed to their respective campaign more in this debate, it was Bush/Cheney who benefited more. I heard nothing "new" from Edwards that i've not heard since he and kerry have been campainging. He was still solid as a fucking brick on the debate end of things, props. However, Bush is the worst debater i've ever seen. EVER. I mean...Fucking EVER!! Everything Cheney said, with respect to numbers and stats, what they've achieved, albeit allegedly, in 4 years on domestic and foreign affairs is stuff i've never heard out of bush, unless he's farting some numbers out of his ass in some discombobulated spasm of a response that happens to be somewhat logical. Edwards did a good job. So did Cheney. I think the republican camp ought to be happy with the way that debate went. Now friday Bush can go fuck it up again...god love the guy tho.

[neur0t0xin64]

Re: VP Debate

Showing up for a breakfast where no votes are cast is clearly no excuse to miss 70% of potential votes. Frankly i'm glad he and Kerry don't show up to vote b/c Kerry = 1st and Edwards = 3rd for most liberal senators decided by a nonpartisan group! Another attempt by liberals to catch Cheney in a "lie" and overseeing the LOGIC!

get real, u guys are going to lose....the american people cant be fooled that easily

[Jenks]

lol, that's going to be difficult, because i don't give a flying fuck.