Gay Marriage Legal now in Canada

[mylexicon]

Re: Gay Marriage Legal now in Canada

this whole "problem" was caused by the government. People should never
have had to register their sanctimonious unions with the government in the
first place. But somehow the government always, i repeat, always manages
to convince stupid people who arent' devoted to limited government that it
is a good idea. Worst of all, federally recognized marriages were a good idea
for quite some time. And now look where we stand. The government could
not have seen this coming. So now we have all different factions of people
rekindling and revisiting old hatreds of one another because the goddamn
government is obsessed with "bringing us all together" for the "union of
American citizens" so we can rise up and meet new challenges. The
problem is when new challenges and problems arise domestically, people
need time and space to reconcile their differences not courtrooms and federal directives.

Am I the only fucking person in the universe that still believes that diversity
is one of America's greatest strengths. And am I the only person in the universe
who understands that diversity and unity are antonyms. Let people remain
separate and free. Gays don't need to be given the right to marry. The fucking
government needs to stop keeping track of personal relationships, because
frankly that's none of their damn business.

[toasty]

Re: Gay Marriage Legal now in Canada

Am I the only fucking person in the universe that still believes that diversity
is one of America's greatest strengths.

We rarely agree on things (in the political forum, anyway), but you're spot on here. Well put.

[runningman]

Re: Gay Marriage Legal now in Canada

Rome seems to be closing a lot of church's in canada here. In my city alone on the news said at least 8 church's are closing. I wonder if this has anything to do with the beginning of the church closing in canada because of making this legal??

[thesightless]

Re: Gay Marriage Legal now in Canada

it has everything to do with it and the church is right. the idea of marriage is thiers. either way one group is going to get pissed on in the situation.

1. religous people get pissed on b/c ""marriage"" is a sacrement originating in the hebrew and catholic churches and now they lost it's meaning due to the gov't

2. gays get pissed on b/c they want equal treatment and the oppurtunity to have something that wasnt meant for them. the civil union is what it should be called to avoid all this mess. give them the same rights and priveleges without stepping on the churches. they are humans after all.

BTW, unless you are a bishop, who the fuck cares, let gays have a ""civil union"" and let the churches keep the sacrement, everyone wins. and officailly, gays cannot be "married" per say, it is a legal union. no church will recognize the "marriage"" part and they dont have to.

[day_for_night]

Re: Gay Marriage Legal now in Canada

people opposed women having the vote and equal rights for minorities when those ideas were first brought forward. if the legislators then had not had the balls to stand up for what is the right and dignified way to treat all people equally, and with respect, then how will society ever progress?

[thesightless]

Re: Gay Marriage Legal now in Canada

but you are taking away the churches right ot prtect thier traditions by doing this and calling it a marriage. thats all i am saying, we need to be fair to both sides of the argument. dont get me wrong, i think gays should have all the benifits of a married couple, but it wouldnt hurt to do the right by the church's side too. let them maintain thier dignity in their sacrements and the views associated with them.

[toasty]

^^
A wedding performed by a judge still results in a marriage.
A wedding between people of different religions still results in a marriage.
A wedding between satanists still results in a marriage.
A wedding between atheists still results in a marriage.

You and I have gone back and forth in a couple of different threads about whether marriage originated as a religious sacrament or not, and it doesn't do any good to rehash that now. Clearly though, in this day and age, there is nothing talismanic about having religion involved in the ceremony that changes the legal result of a "marriage."

Trying to graft it back in as a requirement of a marriage now seems to me to be just a less overt way to discriminate against homosexuals.

By the way, the religions that disapprove of homosexuality do not have a monopoly on the concept of marriage. My dad is a minister, and his church happens to welcome homosexuals -- and when he does a wedding ceremony between a man and a woman, the people still end up married at the end of it all. It seems to only be the churches that are opposed to homosexuals that are up in arms about this.

[runningman]

^^
My dad is a minister, and his church happens to welcome homosexuals -- .

does that make it right then?? there are politicians that are trying to go to church and the church is refusing them the eucharist and telling them they should go to confession to repent (No lie either). also your dad is a minister which makes him what a protesant. There aren't any ministers in the Roman Catholic church they aere called priests.

[toasty]

^^Not really the point. The point is that referring broadly to the rights of "the church" is unavailing to the extent that there isn't one church out there that we all agree offers the "correct" position on anything. I know you're in Canada, but as to the US, the founding fathers came here in part to escape a particular religion being forced down their throats. Hence the first amendment, that "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion."

Declaring one religion's position on this issue "correct" runs afoul of the establishment clause, IMO.

[thesightless]

Re: Gay Marriage Legal now in Canada

all i am saying is that you are stepping on the church by calling it marriage and stepping the homosexual population if you deny them the rights granted by the idea of marriage. i couldnt care either way, but im trying to be fair to both sides.

and the term marriage originated as a sacrement in egypt when the hebrew tribes of pre-AD existed there. was never looked at as ""marriage"", rather was viewed as a union between two ppl. i dont feel like looking it up , but if you want to, about.com, and any of the churches websites shold be your first step.

[thesightless]

Re: Gay Marriage Legal now in Canada

all i think is ...

what would happen if muslims and catholics started preforming ""officially, state liscenced bat and bar mitzfahs""> you know that the hebrew church would have a fit that the gov't was stepping on their tradition. you cant even argue that fact. there would be an uproar, but does that mean that those two groups shouldnt have the ceremony if they wanted? personally, i think that they should be able to have it if they wanted.


while not the same terms, that's the same idea. gotta look at this from all sides/

[toasty]

Re: Gay Marriage Legal now in Canada

what would happen if muslims and catholics started preforming ""officially, state liscenced bat and bar mitzfahs"

I'm not sure that's really the same, in that nothing really changes from a legal standpoint after a bar or bat mitzfah. Sure, it is a coming-of-age sort of event, but it isn't like you can vote, have a beer, drive or do anything special after the ceremony. Put another way, I'm not sure there's a lot of incentive for people who aren't a part of the faith to demand recognition of their ceremony.

there would be an uproar, but does that mean that those two groups shouldnt have the ceremony if they wanted? personally, i think that they should be able to have it if they wanted.

This seems consistent with what I'm saying. Sure, evangelical homophobes will get upset if gay people are allowed to marry. I still think they ought to be able to have the ceremony, call it a wedding, call it marriage, and go through life as a married couple. Who cares?

[thesightless]

Re: Gay Marriage Legal now in Canada

what would happen if muslims and catholics started preforming ""officially, state liscenced bat and bar mitzfahs"

I'm not sure that's really the same, in that nothing really changes from a legal standpoint after a bar or bat mitzfah. Sure, it is a coming-of-age sort of event, but it isn't like you can vote, have a beer, drive or do anything special after the ceremony. Put another way, I'm not sure there's a lot of incentive for people who aren't a part of the faith to demand recognition of their ceremony.

nothing changes after a marriage in the church if you dont obtain the liscence from the state either. you can be married without state approval in NY. but to be recognized by the gov't you need to file. hell, i could go down to the church and get married without the paperwork, but i still wouldnt get the dependent expemption or rights under probate.

[runningman]

Re: Gay Marriage Legal now in Canada

Toasty I think you are a little off track when you are talking about "the church" and "marriage". The church is the only church out there-- The Roman Catholic Church. The rest are spin off religions that lost there way from "the church". Marriage is a sacrament that "the church" gives out to a male and female who have tied there lives together in front of God and promise to each other the promises made in "the wedding".. "The wedding" is the celebration of "the marriage". There you go now that we have that clear we can move forward. I agree with sightless should be called a union or agreement.

[neoee]

^^^ I didn't know that the Catholic church had a monoply on marriage.