I'll live with the TSA, I just don't understand mass-murder

[nelinho]

Re: I'll live with the TSA, I just don't understand mass-murder

start selling guns to children

[nelinho]

Re: I'll live with the TSA, I just don't understand mass-murder

that was a bit of a cuntish thing to say...

I have just gone and seen the article.

[sbando]

Re: I'll live with the TSA, I just don't understand mass-murder

No, it was good black humor. After the Aurora killing somebody actually said something to that effect.

[Troklo]

Re: I'll live with the TSA, I just don't understand mass-murder

that's the accurate description of the essence of America's political correctness and democracy. love blacks, admire jewish wisdom, let gays raise children and then kill 20 little kids with machine guns.

A yes them blacks, jews and gays!! Luckily none of these murderers were white, christian or were raised by straight parents....
oh wait......

[sbando]

Re: I'll live with the TSA, I just don't understand mass-murder

I think you misinterpreted Foreks' post a little bit, my pal .

[Troklo]

Re: I'll live with the TSA, I just don't understand mass-murder

Did I? If I did my bad.
Back on topic
I think this is a hard subject specially for americans since some of them cling so hard on the second amendment. I for one see absolutely no point in owning a weapon. Like my old man used to say "locks and guns only cause problems to the owner" but I can see how people see it as their right to own one. I´m not against banning weapons, If someone absolutely needs to have a gun they should be obligated to go to a psychologist to check that they would not be threat to their selves or other people.

[floridaorange]

Re: I'll live with the TSA, I just don't understand mass-murder

I'm angry, upset, saddened and all around shocked. Couldn't begin to imagine what the kids and parents are going through. I hope something changes because of this. It's interesting to read the comments from those of you outside the US, since a lot of us Americans live in a bubble. God I hope something changes.

[feather]

Re: I'll live with the TSA, I just don't understand mass-murder

I probably have a simplistic view of these things. I don't believe in the right to bear arms nor adhering to something adopted in 1791 according to Wiki.

In no particular order, early American settlers viewed the right to arms and/or the right to bear arms and/or state militias as important for one or more of these purposes:[25][26][27][28][29][30][31][32]

deterring tyrannical government;
repelling invasion;
suppressing insurrection;
facilitating a natural right of self-defense;
participating in law enforcement;
enabling the people to organize a militia system.

How the fuck did that ^ become killing 20 children?

If guns were banned and fucktards didn't have access to them, does that not mean civilians have less need to resort to guns for self defence? Doesn't having guns around create environments that lead to escalation of force, if not already escalated by virtue of the guns' existence?

I saw the video of Obama giving some fluffy speech and crying. I sincerely hope he does something about this, there're enough people affected by this without the power to affect, a president should take action.

[foreks]

Re: I'll live with the TSA, I just don't understand mass-murder

I'm angry, upset, saddened and all around shocked. Couldn't begin to imagine what the kids and parents are going through. I hope something changes because of this. It's interesting to read the comments from those of you outside the US, since a lot of us Americans live in a bubble. God I hope something changes.

each and every year 27,000 people are killed with guns in America while a few hundreds is the death toll for whole Europe. more or less you have been living your Middle Ages and still waiting for the Enligtement.

[Highsteppa]

Re: I'll live with the TSA, I just don't understand mass-murder

If guns were banned and fucktards didn't have access to them, does that not mean civilians have less need to resort to guns for self defence? Doesn't having guns around create environments that lead to escalation of force, if not already escalated by virtue of the guns' existence?

There's still a section of the public that thinks that they are constantly on the cusp of being under a tyrannical government - just look at the postings of some of our own board members for evidence of this and imagine that mentality magnified. That constant siege mentality has a role in fueling gun sales.

Also, the prime argument for the NRA to increase gun sales and drive membership over the last few years has been that "the government is coming for your guns!", despite that Obama has left gun rights pretty much untouched and has done nothing in the form of gun control laws. As a matter of fact, gun laws have actually relaxed under Obama's first four years, not tightened.

I saw the video of Obama giving some fluffy speech and crying. I sincerely hope he does something about this, there're enough people affected by this without the power to affect, a president should take action.

As do I. However, the NRA is one of the most powerful lobbies in the United States and is not going to take kindly to any action that contradicts their agenda. It also doesn't help that federal laws can be trumped by state laws with the power hierarchy in the U.S.

I do think, as shitty as this sounds, that Obama was being a shrewd politician not to touch the gun control issue during the election, as now he has his second term and a lot more freedom to hopefully curtail the laws that allow access to military grade weapons and equipment like high capacity ammunition magazines (I'm hoping that this is the very least he can do - he can and should do a lot more). He's got a lot of ground to make up for since there's been quite a few of these high profile shootings under his watch (Colorado, Gabrielle Gifford in Arizona). That doesn't make it his fault, but he has an opportunity that I hope he seizes and hopefully soon.

[feather]

Re: I'll live with the TSA, I just don't understand mass-murder

That's something I don't get. The right to bear arms in fear of a tyrannical government.

Let's say the worst happens and citizens feel the need to overthrow the government. I get the impression in this modern society whatever overthrowing will happen politically and on paper, rather than actual fighting. When's the last time a revolution happened in America?

And if there is a pocket of citizen uprising, doesn't the government (and its military) have more than enough force to make the effort of said citizens bearing arms laughable?

Seems like this tyrannical government thing is more of an excuse for people to hold on to their toys.

And as you pointed out, there're enough lobbyists and lobbying going on (that I can't claim any familiarity with) to make the point of bearing arms to overthrow anything, pointless. There're enough deals and handshakes going on behind the scenes—what are the chances that these people who do bear arms, will actually do something with their arms?

When do the unarmed citizens say, enough is enough? When does the president say, enough is enough? What's the point of being president and letting this happen?

At the political level there might well be many considerations and complications that I'm not familiar with, but the real world effect is quite straight forward: 20 kids were alive and laughing and playing, now they're not. The shades of grey are reduced to black and white, dead or alive.

The government, the lobbying and what not, the for and anti-arms camps and their 'talks', collectively allowed this to happen.

Coming from a place like Singapore known for its nanny state, I have to wonder if all these talk about amendments and rights are overrated if children below 10 are dying for no reason. You don't even have political strife and crap like other countries as an excuse. It's not like being caught in the cross fires or in some random bombing and you think, there is a larger context here.

There isn't. Some guy got pissed off with his family and was allowed and given the means to take 20 children with him.


[Edit: Sorry feels like I'm just ranting now.]

[trick12]

Re: I'll live with the TSA, I just don't understand mass-murder

even if they ban it now, the country is already so full of guns and obtaining one will be as easy as buying a beer for an underage kid, what i fear is that this is turning into a frequent thing here, and its developing into a common practice in America where sick people go and gundown public for whatever personal or mental reason,...and to do it to kids that couldnt even harm you if they wanted is so sad, may their families have patience...now this is the true definition of terrorism

[Highsteppa]

Re: I'll live with the TSA, I just don't understand mass-murder

That's something I don't get. The right to bear arms in fear of a tyrannical government.

Let's say the worst happens and citizens feel the need to overthrow the government. I get the impression in this modern society whatever overthrowing will happen politically and on paper, rather than actual fighting. When's the last time a revolution happened in America?

And if there is a pocket of citizen uprising, doesn't the government (and its military) have more than enough force to make the effort of said citizens bearing arms laughable?

Seems like this tyrannical government thing is more of an excuse for people to hold on to their toys.

It's a bit of a strawman's argument on the part of the pro-gun lobby - it's always "just in case" and a demand of constant vigilance. It's like saying that I should always wear a parka, even if I live in a tropical climate, in case the ice age comes - at least I will be prepared and not left vulnerable. Some factions take this a lot further and feel that it's their responsibility to be prepared and to form things like private militias, while others seem to fantasize about being the one man Rambo/Chuck Norris that will personally save the U.S. from Tyranny. Then you have the faction that feel that the Tyranny has already arrived and is present with the current government and they have to take advantage of this freedom before (in their eyes) that their government closes the door on their opportunity to "take the country back". It's fucked, to put it mildly.

And as you pointed out, there're enough lobbyists and lobbying going on (that I can't claim any familiarity with) to make the point of bearing arms to overthrow anything, pointless. There're enough deals and handshakes going on behind the scenes—what are the chances that these people who do bear arms, will actually do something with their arms?

See this is the thing - lobbying originally was supposed to be more of an advisory role - consultation for expertise on matters that the government had no knowledge on when it came to an industry that required specific expertise. Somewhere along the way things got perverted into being a business more about companies and industries peddling influence and advancing their own interests instead of consultation and trying to help the government understand the impact a decision would have to the general public. I feel that originally the intentions were good when lobbying stated, but there wasn't any regulation in the practices, which has resulted into (what I see it as being) something that approaches bribery, but is a couple of steps away from being blatant.

When do the unarmed citizens say, enough is enough? When does the president say, enough is enough? What's the point of being president and letting this happen?

Dude, the gun control lobby can't hold a candle to the revenues generated by the NRA - the NRA has backing of every gun manufacturer, regular citizens as well as even members of the government themselves (which in the latter case strikes me as a huge conflict of interest, but also causes a problem with personal freedoms of the individual). The gun control lobby doesn't have anywhere near the resources - they're a lobby that is trying to protect their own back yard, don't have much in the way of industry backing them and are outfunded by international companies as well as companies that originate out of the U.S. Also, they're advocating under the pretense of personal responsibility which is a considerably less sexy sell compared to the freedom and sense of excess available when it comes to the gun lobby.

Part of the problem, the way I see it, is there isn't a separation of these interests - the lines are so blurred that it's nearly impossible right now to ensure that specific free market interests don't creep into the political decisions that are being made for the country, putting the interests of the citizens second in the name of business interest of whatever industry is involved. But how you separate and ensure that is another story entirely, and not an easy answer to formulate.

At the political level there might well be many considerations and complications that I'm not familiar with, but the real world effect is quite straight forward: 20 kids were alive and laughing and playing, now they're not. The shades of grey are reduced to black and white, dead or alive.

The government, the lobbying and what not, the for and anti-arms camps and their 'talks', collectively allowed this to happen.

Coming from a place like Singapore known for its nanny state, I have to wonder if all these talk about amendments and rights are overrated if children below 10 are dying for no reason. You don't even have political strife and crap like other countries as an excuse. It's not like being caught in the cross fires or in some random bombing and you think, there is a larger context here.

There isn't. Some guy got pissed off with his family and was allowed and given the means to take 20 children with him.


[Edit: Sorry feels like I'm just ranting now.]

S'all good mang, I'm frustrated and saddened at how big the picture is as to how fucked up this all is too. It's not a simple matter of just banning or limiting sales of weapons, there's a fundamental change that needs to be done to the system itself to prevent this sort of tragedy from happening again and to ensure that the steps taken aren't just token gestures. But how does the U.S. do that?

[Highsteppa]

Re: I'll live with the TSA, I just don't understand mass-murder

even if they ban it now, the country is already so full of guns and obtaining one will be as easy as buying a beer for an underage kid, what i fear is that this is turning into a frequent thing here, and its developing into a common practice in America where sick people go and gundown public for whatever personal or mental reason,...and to do it to kids that couldnt even harm you if they wanted is so sad, may their families have patience...now this is the true definition of terrorism

Great point about the number of guns already in the hands of the public. Even with the limitation/banning of certain weapons there are already an insane amount of them accessible.

[bigtimm]

Re: I'll live with the TSA, I just don't understand mass-murder

...now this is the true definition of terrorism

Indeed. A war on terror of this kind is long overdue