support the troops

[Miroslav]

Re: support the troops

^^ Well, here's how I see it...

1. While this war in Iraq and Afghanistan may not be the case, history has shown that there really are times when it is noble, right, and necessary to stand and fight. Pacifism just doesn't work because it only takes one side to start a fight.

2. Therefore, we do need a standing military and they do ultimately provide an absolutely critical service to you.

3. A modern military consisting of millions of people simply does not have the luxury of leaving it up to each individual person as to whether they feel like showing up and fighting, feel like staying home, feel like following an order, etc. It's imperfect, but you can't have direct representation there, similarly as you can't have direct representation in the governance of a large nation. It just can't function that way.

4. Therefore, the entire issue really comes down to when, how, and why the military force is deployed. Not as to why the men and women of the military have decided to train and develop their skills to carry out their tasks.

In my opinion, we should be directing our anger and intense questioning towards the people at the top who make these calls to deploy, and not the men and women who are in the military organization itself. That's what we owe to our military.

[Shpira]

Re: support the troops

Plus when you feel like protesting certain decisions, disagreeing with officials outloud, booming whatever music you want riding around in your ride, staying up all night for a 10 hr Danny Howells show, eating at a twenty four hour restaraunt, etc, etc, just remember that person you think is poor, crazy, ignorant etc, is out on a patrol somewhere in BFE in full battle rattle so you can do all those things mentioned above with out having to think twice. On top of that , that poor, ignorant crazy person, vollunteered for their position so you don't have to do it.

I am sorry but This is a pile of shit.
There is no way to call it but that.
You and your friends are not fighting for me...
If I had a choice you would not be there. That is pure and outer bullshit,,,you are not fighting for my freedoms or my rights. Furthermore, I would never go to war even if there was conscription - I would just move somewhere like Switzerland.
These ideas of heroism (in my opinion) are something you and your fellow soldiers have been spoon fed to psych you guys up and make you feel all tingly inside.
I have nothing against you and I wish for you all the best i.e. to survive and come home (just as I wish for everyone fighting on both sides) so please don't serve me that crap about you doing your part or my part or whose ever part because in my eyes you and every other soldier on both sides are puppets on a string. Ever since the dawn of time nation states have been nothing more than figments of imagination...a way for the government to control people for the purpose of taxation and army.
Call me a hippie an anarchist or whatever you will but I do not feel allied to any nation whatsoever.

Furthermore when governments are completely open about the way they operate and they can show me a clear threat the Afghanistan poses to me and my way of life I will agree with all you said. Until then they can fuck right off.

p.s. as much as they want you to believe it, you are not fighting against the third reich

[ShawnD64]

Re: support the troops

when reporters heads are chopped off on tv i think the geneva convention is slightly compromised...

[chunky]

Re: support the troops

Actually i'll throw the tyranny, Exploitation, and crime in what I said earlier too. That sounds like a cnn headline right there

And I wasn't talking about Iraq as the enemy. Think a little harder. who is a power that we have dealt with in the past who still makes uneasy gestures?? Russia, China, North Korea, and now Iran. and what Country is close to or borders them? hmmmmm let me think.....Afghanistan!

Yeah and lets face it the American government has always been at war with somebody. Someone has to be the enemy whether its Bosnia, Cuba, Russia, China, North Korea, Panama, Iraq or Iran. One thing we all know is war makes a lot of people rich.

And I stand by my final statement because if you pay attention to US history you would know that there was adraft in Vietnam. That means your ass would be drafted to fight in something you don't care about. As long as there is vollunteers for the military, you don't have to worry about it.

I'm not going to be doing it either way. I would rather object and do some hard time

[hambino21]

Re: support the troops

It is absolutely necessary to question what the Soldier, Airman, Sailor, or Marines do. What they do is a consequence of the orders given to them by a higher authority. Whether we should blame the soldiers for carrying out thier orders is the point you're trying to make. To suggest that anyone cannot question what they do is outright absurd. If the citizens of the United States cede power to a federal government, it must always be with a watchful eye. However, it is a growing trend to demand that we turn a blind eye to whatever the government is doing, because "it is in the best social interests". Perhaps this is why things are so very fvcked right now.

I'm also disturbed about the essence of your final statement, which suggests that if you didn't volunteer, the government could force us to fight. But force is not an argument; to force someone to take up arms, particularly given the present situation when there is no threat to this country in the areas the commanders have chosen to fight, is to deprive someone of thier life, thier liberty, and presumptively, thier happiness. If you seek gratitude for your service, do so on the grounds that you keep others from being forced, at the end of a gun, to fight for whatever cause the government chooses.

I didn't say not to question what they do. Look closer. I said don't ask them "Why" they do what they do. Not what they do. Why they do what they do is a personal choice.

And I stand by my final statement because if you pay attention to US history you would know that there was adraft in Vietnam. That means your ass would be drafted to fight in something you don't care about. As long as there is vollunteers for the military, you don't have to worry about it.

Thats what I meant.

[hambino21]

Re: support the troops

I thought this was why you joined the Air force. Personally don't think the solders are serving their country. They are serving their Government. I personally think a lot patriotism is blind faith. Although i cant imagine most of the Iraqi army joined because they felt patriotic.

Correct. What was lost in translation?

I love my country= patriotism
if you read the post after this one above I mention voullunteering so you don't have to. well that = patriotism as well, in the fact that I realize most people don't want to live like this and so i do this job so you don't have to.

And the benefits when it comes to school and training are good. Yeah thats some of the reasons why I joined.

Brother, you are entitled to whatever opinion you want man. thats the beauty of it. and so am I. Not Everyone is going to see eye to eye so why argue. Plus like Shosh said, isn't this thread about support the troops, not some political fiasco?

[88Mariner]

Re: support the troops

When it comes to the Soldier, Airman, Sailor, and Marine, the least you can do is to not question why they do what they do. And don't insult them by saying that they must be poor, uneducated, or crazy for serving their country. Thats just rediculous! It is something they decided to do. And yes some were talked into it and it might not have been the best idea for them, but they are the ones that have to deal with this decision, not you. Plus when you feel like protesting certain decisions, disagreeing with officials outloud, booming whatever music you want riding around in your ride, staying up all night for a 10 hr Danny Howells show, eating at a twenty four hour restaraunt, etc, etc, just remember that person you think is poor, crazy, ignorant etc, is out on a patrol somewhere in BFE in full battle rattle so you can do all those things mentioned above with out having to think twice. On top of that , that poor, ignorant crazy person, vollunteered for their position so you don't have to do it.

It is absolutely necessary to question what the Soldier, Airman, Sailor, or Marines do. What they do is a consequence of the orders given to them by a higher authority. Whether we should blame the soldiers for carrying out thier orders is the point you're trying to make. To suggest that anyone cannot question what they do is outright absurd. If the citizens of the United States cede power to a federal government, it must always be with a watchful eye. However, it is a growing trend to demand that we turn a blind eye to whatever the government is doing, because "it is in the best social interests". Perhaps this is why things are so very fvcked right now.

I'm also disturbed about the essence of your final statement, which suggests that if you didn't volunteer, the government could force us to fight. But force is not an argument; to force someone to take up arms, particularly given the present situation when there is no threat to this country in the areas the commanders have chosen to fight, is to deprive someone of thier life, thier liberty, and presumptively, thier happiness. If you seek gratitude for your service, do so on the grounds that you keep others from being forced, at the end of a gun, to fight for whatever cause the government chooses.

[chunky]

Re: support the troops

I have received better training and experience in my career field( which happens to be broadcast technology/engineering) then most do on the outside. And guess what, I didn't have to pay shit. Plus I get %100 college tuition while i am in and the GI bill when I get out. Plus if you're into universal health care thats what the military is all about.( which I am not the biggest fan really. I still can't figur out why people think its the way to go but whatever GO Socialism) Oh yeah and as crazy as it sounds, I love my damn country.

I thought this was why you joined the Air force. Personally don't think the solders are serving their country. They are serving their Government. I personally think a lot patriotism is blind faith. Although i cant imagine most of the Iraqi army joined because they felt patriotic.

[hambino21]

Re: support the troops

I didn't say genocide was being committed by the coalition. I said that that sort of behavior is not acceptable just because its been going on for thousands of years. Although i did notice you didn't highlight Tyranny Exploitation or Crime.

Also who ultimately pays for the school that's being built outside your front door. I'm guessing its not charity or good will. Its going on the debt. That will no doubt be floated on the stock exchange. And surely you cant seriously think Iraq would ever be ready to attack.

Actually i'll throw the tyranny, Exploitation, and crime in what I said earlier too. That sounds like a cnn headline right there

And I wasn't talking about Iraq as the enemy. Think a little harder. who is a power that we have dealt with in the past who still makes uneasy gestures?? Russia, China, North Korea, and now Iran. and what Country is close to or borders them? hmmmmm let me think.....Afghanistan!

[chunky]

Re: support the troops

Last tiem I checked there wasn't a genocide being commited by the coalition here in Afghanistan. As a mater of fact i can look right out of my front door and see aschool being built for the Afghan kids by the coalition. I am sorry to hear that you are ashamed of your country. the US is definitely far from perfect but does a lot more good than it is given credit for. and whenit comes to the strategic advantage. If you have countrie with known aggressive pasts that aren't on that great of terms with your country, wouldn't you like to be ready in case they decide to pounce. It's called a deterent, thats how things work.

I didn't say genocide was being committed by the coalition. I said that that sort of behavior is not acceptable just because its been going on for thousands of years. Although i did notice you didn't highlight Tyranny Exploitation or Crime.

Also who ultimately pays for the school that's being built outside your front door. I'm guessing its not charity or good will. Its going on the debt. That will no doubt be floated on the stock exchange. And surely you cant seriously think Iraq would ever be ready to attack.

[shosh]

Re: support the troops

When it comes to the Soldier, Airman, Sailor, and Marine, the least you can do is to not question why they do what they do. And don't insult them by saying that they must be poor, uneducated, or crazy for serving their country. Thats just rediculous! It is something they decided to do. And yes some were talked into it and it might not have been the best idea for them, but they are the ones that have to deal with this decision, not you. Plus when you feel like protesting certain decisions, disagreeing with officials outloud, booming whatever music you want riding around in your ride, staying up all night for a 10 hr Danny Howells show, eating at a twenty four hour restaraunt, etc, etc, just remember that person you think is poor, crazy, ignorant etc, is out on a patrol somewhere in BFE in full battle rattle so you can do all those things mentioned above with out having to think twice. On top of that , that poor, ignorant crazy person, vollunteered for their position so you don't have to do it.

QFT

[hambino21]

Re: support the troops

When it comes to the Soldier, Airman, Sailor, and Marine, the least you can do is to not question why they do what they do. And don't insult them by saying that they must be poor, uneducated, or crazy for serving their country. Thats just rediculous! It is something they decided to do. And yes some were talked into it and it might not have been the best idea for them, but they are the ones that have to deal with this decision, not you. Plus when you feel like protesting certain decisions, disagreeing with officials outloud, booming whatever music you want riding around in your ride, staying up all night for a 10 hr Danny Howells show, eating at a twenty four hour restaraunt, etc, etc, just remember that person you think is poor, crazy, ignorant etc, is out on a patrol somewhere in BFE in full battle rattle so you can do all those things mentioned above with out having to think twice. On top of that , that poor, ignorant crazy person, vollunteered for their position so you don't have to do it.

[hambino21]

Re: support the troops

Isn't that like saying Saddam Hussein would of been stupid not to take control of Iraq in the fist place because the opportunity was there. And just because its been an object of strategy since before Alexander the Great's time doesnt make it acceptable. Genocide, Tyranny Exploitation & Crime aren't anymore acceptable just because they have gone on for Thousands of years. Surley at some point we have to learn from the mistakes of the past and move on. I'm glad you love your country, Because the current UK government did some great things for their people. And then completely lost all their integrity with the war. I'm ashamed of my country.

Last tiem I checked there wasn't a genocide being commited by the coalition here in Afghanistan. As a mater of fact i can look right out of my front door and see aschool being built for the Afghan kids by the coalition. I am sorry to hear that you are ashamed of your country. the US is definitely far from perfect but does a lot more good than it is given credit for. and whenit comes to the strategic advantage. If you have countrie with known aggressive pasts that aren't on that great of terms with your country, wouldn't you like to be ready in case they decide to pounce. It's called a deterent, thats how things work.

[chunky]

Re: support the troops

Oh yeah and as crazy as it sounds, I love my damn country!! Andi am not a fool I realize that Afghanistan is extremely strategic, but a country like the US would be stupid to not take advantage of it. hell its been an object of strategy since before Alexander the Great's time.

Isn't that like saying Saddam Hussein would of been stupid not to take control of Iraq in the fist place because the opportunity was there. And just because its been an object of strategy since before Alexander the Great's time doesnt make it acceptable. Genocide, Tyranny Exploitation & Crime aren't anymore acceptable just because they have gone on for Thousands of years. Surley at some point we have to learn from the mistakes of the past and move on. I'm glad you love your country, Because the current UK government did some great things for their people. And then completely lost all their integrity with the war. I'm ashamed of my country.

[hambino21]

Re: support the troops

Trust me I don't get offended, especially by people I have never met. First off, I am third generation Air force like mentioned before. I have always known a lot about the military. It has given my family a lot. And if you seriously think everyone in the military is guarding gates or convoying to go kill then you need YOUR head examined. I have received better training and experience in my career field( which happens to be broadcast technology/engineering) then most do on the outside. And guess what, I didn't have to pay shit. Plus I get %100 college tuition while i am in and the GI bill when I get out. Plus if you're into universal health care thats what the military is all about.( which I am not the biggest fan really. I still can't figur out why people think its the way to go but whatever GO Socialism) Oh yeah and as crazy as it sounds, I love my damn country!! Andi am not a fool I realize that Afghanistan is extremely strategic, but a country like the US would be stupid to not take advantage of it. hell its been an object of strategy since before Alexander the Great's time. Plus if you ever get a chance to see afghanistan yourself you would know how much the US and coalition are doing for this country.A lot of it is cleaning up what the Russiand left here.

Thats why.

To begin with I really don't watch TV at all...i wouldn't own one if it weren't for the fact that my dad stops by once in a while and wants to watch the news.
Secondly not to disrespect anyone in particular,but I am just sharing my opinion, going to war is really really REALLY stupid. the only viable reason i would ever go to war would be self defense of me and my family or friends...as for patriotism etc...fuck that shit.
On the other hand I can understand if a under privileged person goes to war because he or she has no choice or a person who loves killing/fighting goes...but anyone with a choice should have their head examined for going to war.
I don't see anything noble or admirable about being paid peanuts to risk your life for someones election campaign or someones profits...whatever the reason.
Its not about having or not having the balls...I have been in a fair amount of tough situations in my life to know what I would and what I wouldn't be able to handle so I don't see the point of fighting.
Maybe you can explain to me why you joined?

p.s. I am not trying to insult you or anything.