16 civilians and 20 soldiers..vs. 357 officially killed

[davetlv]

Re: 16 civilians and 20 soldiers..vs. 357 officially killed

Dig

Palestine stopped being the issue when the Arabs cared more about the death of Israelis then in creating a Palestinie State.

Enjoy Pilger, the twat!

[darkmark]

Re: 16 civilians and 20 soldiers..vs. 357 officially killed

Throughout this now 16-day-old war, Israeli planes high above civilian areas make decisions on what to bomb. They send huge bombs capable of killing things for hundreds of meters around their targets, and then blame the inevitable civilian deaths -- the Lebanese government says 600 civilians have been killed so far -- on "terrorists" who callously use the civilian infrastructure for protection.

But this claim is almost always false. Hezbollah fighters -- as opposed to the much more numerous Hezbollah political members, and the vastly more numerous Hezbollah sympathizers -- avoid civilians. Much smarter and better trained than the PLO and Hamas fighters, they know that if they mingle with civilians, they will sooner or later be betrayed by collaborators -- as so many Palestinian militants have been.

For their part, the Israelis seem to think that if they keep pounding civilians, they'll get some fighters, too. The almost nightly airstrikes on the southern suburbs of Beirut could be seen as making some sense, as the Israelis appear convinced there are command and control bunkers underneath the continually smoldering rubble. There were some civilian casualties the first few nights in places like Haret Hreik, but people quickly left the area to the Hezbollah fighters with their radios and motorbikes.

But other attacks seem gratuitous, fishing expeditions, or simply intended to punish anything and anyone even vaguely connected to Hezbollah. Lighthouses, grain elevators, milk factories, bridges in the north used by refugees, apartment buildings partially occupied by members of Hezbollah's political wing -- all have been reduced to rubble.

In the south, where Shiites dominate, just about everyone supports Hezbollah. Does mere support for Hezbollah, or even participation in Hezbollah activities, mean your house and family are fair game? Do you need to fire rockets from your front yard? Or is it enough to be a political activist?

The Israelis are consistent: They bomb everyone and everything remotely associated with Hezbollah, including noncombatants. In effect, that means punishing Lebanon. The nation is 40 percent Shiite, and of that 40 percent, tens of thousands are employed by Hezbollah's social services, political operations, schools, and other nonmilitary functions. The "terrorist" organization Hezbollah is Lebanon's second-biggest employer.

Although Israel targets apartments and offices because they are considered "Hezbollah" installations, the group has a clear policy of keeping its fighters away from civilians as much as possible. This is not for humanitarian reasons but for military ones.

"You can be a member of Hezbollah your entire life and never see a military wing fighter with a weapon," a Lebanese military intelligence official once said. "They do not come out with their masks off and never operate around people if they can avoid it. They're completely afraid of collaborators. They know this is what breaks the Palestinians -- no discipline and too much showing off."

Hezbollah guys, on the other hand, know that letting their fighters near outsiders of any kind -- journalists or Lebanese, even Hezbollah supporters -- is stupid.

Hezbollah's political members say they have little or no access to the workings of the fighters. This seems to be largely true: While they obviously hear and know more than the outside world, the firewall is strong.

Israel, however, has chosen to treat the political members of Hezbollah as if they were fighters. And by targeting the civilian wing of the group, which supplies much of the humanitarian aid and social protection for the poorest people in the south, they are targeting civilians.

So the analysts talking on cable news about Hezbollah "hiding within the civilian population" clearly have spent little time if any in the south Lebanon war zone and don't know what they're talking about. Hezbollah doesn't trust the civilian population and has worked very hard to evacuate as much of it as possible from the battlefield. And this is why they fight so well -- with no one to spy on them, they have lots of chances to take the Israel Defense Forces by surprise, as they have by continuing to fire rockets and punish every Israeli ground incursion.

And the civilians? They see themselves as targeted regardless of their affiliation. They are enraged at Israel and at the United States, the only two countries on earth not calling for an immediate cease-fire. Lebanese of all persuasions think the United States and Israel believe that Lebanese lives are cheaper than Israeli ones. And many are now saying that they want to fight.

[KinKyJ]

Re: 16 civilians and 20 soldiers..vs. 357 officially killed

^^^ Why don't you take your little yellow flag and go wave it in Qana eh?

[malayday]

Re: 16 civilians and 20 soldiers..vs. 357 officially killed

it never belonged to them....immorally given to them..at the expense of innocent civilians....they are such a paranoid people...i dont blame the intensity of dave..but it seems like he doesnt want to reflect...just make the other person look stoopid...there are a bunch of people you seem to have to reply to dave...maybe thats a sign...maybe you should stop to think....the deeply ingrained paranoia inhibts this reflective process...you know you talk shit..its ok..we all talk shit some times.... like dig was saying its like you have to justify what you do and continue even though its fuked and you know it..stop quoting these sound bytes that the mainstream media feeds you...most stations and papers even in australia and else where are owned by people with political agendas..this should not be a surprise to anyone reading..
you guys know this..so stop picking on bullshit to support your bullshit..it just becomes a bigger pile of stinky fukin bullshit....israel is wrong no matter what...they will pay..thier shortsightedness or sightlessness will lead to thier demise....
the new hizbullah barrage of 200 is wrong too...but good to know only one dead...one died in palestine too but about 160 since they re occupied in july (just repeating news)...invaders galore...pinch and pillage..anyone heard the song...

[malayday]

Re: 16 civilians and 20 soldiers..vs. 357 officially killed

theres a page six....dam nit..

[davetlv]

Re: 16 civilians and 20 soldiers..vs. 357 officially killed

it never belonged to them....immorally given to them..at the expense of innocent civilians....they are such a paranoid people...

Sorry maladay, but either your not explaining yourself properly here or your rambling. So lets try to get to the bottom of this before we move on to the rest of your post.

1. Who did it never belong to?

2. Immorally given? Would you care to elaborate?

3. Such a paranoid people? Who are?

[thesightless]

Re: 16 civilians and 20 soldiers..vs. 357 officially killed

paranoid about what> the history of random fucknuts who claim allah rules everyone throwing homemade explosives into coffee shops and bars and clubs for 40 years, or paranoid that another nutbag might gather up an army like hitler already did, or paranoid that a few million people who took their land centuries ago might want every square inch...


dave stop arguing with them. anyone with a remarkable ability to completely ignore certain facts isnt even worth reading. (remember the guy who had a hard time accepting engineering facts regarding the building the twin towers.)

[davetlv]

Re: 16 civilians and 20 soldiers..vs. 357 officially killed

Sean

I'm working on my post count. . . .let me have some fun!!!!

[Jenks]

Re: 16 civilians and 20 soldiers..vs. 357 officially killed

amazing to see people actually standing up for hezbollah in this thread.

[neoee]

Re: 16 civilians and 20 soldiers..vs. 357 officially killed

dave stop arguing with them. anyone with a remarkable ability to completely ignore certain facts isnt even worth reading. (remember the guy who had a hard time accepting engineering facts regarding the building the twin towers.)

I've stayed out of this middle east topic since admittedly, I'm not all that familiar with the history of the area, but something I recently observed prompted me to chime in. In one instance you have people taking coincidences and forming theories (9/11 anomalies) and some completely dismissing valid arguments where in another instance (Qana) you take less substantial anomalies and the alternative theory is somehow believable by these same people. Why does this theory hold up any better to your own scrutiny than the others that have anomalies which seem to have much more weight to them? Not to hijack the topic just pointing out an observation and understand the logic.

At least you guys could be consistant. If you are going to say that 9/11 was caused solely by the boogyman terrorists than here you can't say hezbollah (sp?) planned Qana based on circumstantial evidence.

And to sightless- in another post, in another thread, you said you provided proof from engineers who were on MS about the fall of the towers. I recall one of the "engineers" being someone who had experience working on cars, specifically with a plasma cutter, yet you took this as fact and now call this guy an "engineer" and at the very same time ignore the fact that the very people who certified the steel in the buildings claim that it was certified for over 3000 degrees- which as you may already know jet fuel under optimum conditions cannot burn at. But thats a topic for another thread, now back to the thread...

[Jenks]

Re: 16 civilians and 20 soldiers..vs. 357 officially killed

Sightless...called out!! KICK HIS ASS SEABEZ!!!

[neoee]

Re: 16 civilians and 20 soldiers..vs. 357 officially killed

^ I know a bit off topic but simply pointing out that in both cases, if held to the same standard they are both "conspiracy theories".

[sono]

Re: 16 civilians and 20 soldiers..vs. 357 officially killed

The rules of political correctness when it comes to the Israeli-Arab conflict:

Rule 1: In the Middle East, it is always the Arabs that attack first, and it's always Israel who defends itself. This is called "retaliation".
Rule 2: The Arabs, whether Palestinians or Lebanese, are not allowed to kill Israelis. This is called "terrorism".
Rule 3: Israel has the right to kill Arab civilians; this is called "self-defence", or these days "collateral damage".
Rule 4: When Israel kills too many civilians, the western world calls for restraint. This is called the "reaction of the international community".
Rule 5: Palestinians and Lebanese do not have the right to capture Israeli military, not even a limited number, not even one or two.
Rule 6: Israel has the right to capture as many Palestinians as they want (Palestinians: around 10,000 to date, 300 of whom are children; Lebanese: thousands to date, all held without trial). There is no limit; there is no need for proof of guilt or trial. All that is needed is the magic word "terrorism".
Rule 7: When you say "Hizbullah", always be sure to add "supported by Syria and Iran".
Rule 8: When you say "Israel", never say "supported by the US, the UK and other European countries", for people (God forbid) might believe this is not an equal conflict.
Rule 9: When it comes to Israel, don't mention the words "occupied territories", "UN resolutions" or "Geneva conventions". This could distress the audience of Fox and other Rupert Murdoch-owned media outlets.
Rule 10: Israelis speak better English than Arabs. This is why we let them speak out as much as possible, so that they can explain rules one to nine. This is called "neutral journalism".
Rule 11: If you don't agree with these rules, or if you favour the Arab side over the Israeli side, you must be a very dangerous anti-semite. You may even have to make a public apology if you express your honest opinion.

[Bululu]

Re: 16 civilians and 20 soldiers..vs. 357 officially killed

Good post Sono , I especially like Rule 11.

[Jenks]

Re: 16 civilians and 20 soldiers..vs. 357 officially killed

^anti-semites x 2.