100,000 civilians killed in Iraq?

[Yao]

Anyone who believes that 100,000 deaths have been recorded is out of their mind. This number has been rebutted a number of times by outside groups. What a crock.

No, they just made an outrageously wild guess...

[thesightless]

Re: 100,000 civilians killed in Iraq?

runningman, i dont know you, but i am already afraid of you....

and i disagree with some of the "extremist" ideas of the religion, but i realize that we cant go on a holy war here.

wow......cancer......wow.......

[cosmo]

Anyone who believes that 100,000 deaths have been recorded is out of their mind. This number has been rebutted a number of times by outside groups. What a crock.

[Yao]

Actually Yao, the media here in the U.S., whether it be tv, newspapers, magazines, talk shows, etc...has really tried to show that Islam is a religion of peace, and I think any level headed person would realize that Islam is unfortunately being "hijacked" by radical extremists. I really don't understand why the rest of the world think that Americans are dumb or oblivious. I take that back, look at our crap reality shows, crap gossip shows, crap lots of other things; but that is not what the overwhelming
majority of the population here is all about. That overwhelming majority is very tolerant of other cultures and beliefs...unfortunately, the bad seeds stand out more and make it look like the rest of us are just as f#%*d up as they are. We're hard working (I believe we have much less holidays than most countries), compassionate, and forgiving. Don't let Hollywood taint what most other Americans are really about...

Gokada, If I gave you the impression that I thought of Americans as passive, critique-less and dumb people, than I should have chosen my words better. Because that has never been my intention, so please excuse me for that. We in Europe are also fed a certein image of the US when it comes to the media in your country: mostly that all media are very biased and never tell the whole truth, to such an extent that many Americans are almost brainwashed and therefore cannot make the well-thought-over choice in, for example, the elections. I've tried not to believe in this image too much, because I know our media is very biased when it comes to the US. If my remarks have shown different (me getting influenced nonetheless), I'm sorry for that.

Your reality- and talkshows are crap however .

As far as your comparison of Muslims and Christians and the way they treat their women, you mentioned that beating women is a part of culture. Well whether or not that's the case, can't you agree that beating women, or anyone for that matter, is wrong? You sound like an intelligent person so I think you'll agree. At the same time, the fact that Christians "let" their women work and take care of kids is a part, not of Christianity, but of American culture. It takes 2 to make enough money to support the family here in the U.S.. Whether monogamy is better than polygamy or vice versa, depends on the culture. It's the way one is raised...I don't think one way is necessarily better than the other...just different from one another...that's all...

I agree to the fullest with you when it comes to beating women, don't worry about that.
As for the part of American culture: I was actually referring to African countries, just below the Sahara, where you can see the transition from Islamic culture to Christian culture within the borders of certain countries like Ivory coast, Sudan, Mali, Nigeria, Chad. Marriage an religion do have an economic dimension over there, unlike the Western world. Aspects that we dissaprove of, may have advantages in certain societies. Read that part again, and you'll understand what I meant...I hope.

And some things do get fixed by fighting...now I'm not a warmonger...but we "fixed" Japan after the attack on Pearl Harbor (it's a personal struggle within me since I'm Japanese American), the Germans were "fixed" too...I agree that war sucks, innocent people always die and that sucks...the fact that we're fighting terrorists or insurgents in Iraq shows that the decision to go into Iraq in the first place may have been a good one, regardless of how it was done...we're fighting them over there instead of over here...the fact is that these people want to kill us, they've revealed their hate towards us by the USS Cole bombing, the embassy bombings, the WTC bombing in 1993, and obviously 9/11....they've attacked the world for about 20 years now (homicide bombers in Israel, the Berlin disotheque bombing, the Pan Am bombing in Lockerbie, Scotland, and the hijacking of the Italian cruise ship Achille Lauro)...I think we've taken all we can take...now, we have a President that isn't scared to act, that doesn't care what leaders of other nations think of him, and that has the guts to finally take on these assholes...Are we supposed to wait until they hit us again? Would you try to stop someone that wants to kill you and your family or would you wait for him to make the first move?

Also a good remark. I am not a pacifist per s?, and sometimes you need to give someone a slap in the face to make him listen or obey.

The reason the is that I hear people saying: it's better to fight this war out there than here, and that they were going to attack you anyway.
I still have doubts about that view: Muslim extremists may have been militant, but they didn't come to you until you came to them. The USS Cole was somewhere in the Middle East, right? On their soil. They gave you the warning out there, also by bombing the embassies in Tanzania and Kenya (hope I'm right about the countries??). But you didn't go. That's when they went in, no sooner.
And that's why I think the argument of fighting the war on their ground is illegal in this discussion. I hope you understand what my viewpoint is here.

9/11 can never be seen as a good thing, or a deserved thing. No way. But I think is had been provoked by the assertive way of dealing with the Middle East problems, and the presence of US troops over there. They're not trying to kill all Americans...yet. They're trying to chase you away. That's what I think. But then again, that's just me. And who am I?

[mixu]

runningman, I give up on you...

[runningman]

^^ i know i am almost crossing the line.. it is begining to get harder for me to tell myself that all muslims aren't bad.. i have muslim friends that i haven't seen in awhile because all we do is argue about Bush.. Obviously all muslims aren't bad.. but they are the fastest growing population.. They are similar to cancer.. they double every year.. There families have like 13 kids and the average christian has 2.. we are beginning to get out numbered..But all the warning signs are there as from before when the christians went on crusades.. Everybody has problems with the Islam faith.. whether you want it or not in there religion there will always be extremists.. As there numbers grow they start trying to take over there respective countries.. It's happening here in Canada.. Why do you think we aren't at war with the US and the UK (our closest allies)?? places like Toronto are a perfect place for Al-Quieda to sit and wait to see if Canada cooperates with the US.. and when we do it will be our heads they are cutting off..
and brakada why do you think we aren't at war with them now.. Could it be because they know they will lose right now because we have the nukes and the technology.. We can kill 1 billion muslims at the push of a button.. To win a war now isn't about numbers anymore.. its about technology.. they know that and they are trying to get a hold of WMD's.. I don't want to argue anmore about which religion is better.. Nobody can convince me that there's is better.. I just look at each sides "way of life".. Ours is better..you can't sayno beceause i have one word for you.. plumbing.. we have it they don't.. Our woman are free- there's aren't.. There religion is based by the sword-Ours isn't..

[brakada]

^^^^ I agree with you that some things can be fixed by fighting. I'm not going to argue whether the war in Iraq was right or wrong (personally I think it was wrong), but the entire operation was badly planned (I don't think that 100,000 civilians died in Germany or Japan during the "fixing" :wink: )

- Too little diplomatic support was gathered (IMHO the US would have gotten a lot more diplomatic support if they hadn't rushed into with such a hurry),
- too few forces were allocated (one of the most first things should be to secure (at least the most "critical") Iraq borders and prevent all the terrorists from neighbouring countries coming to Iraq)
- reconstruction is progressing too slowly,
- the US and the new Iraq army are a bit late "dealing" with insurgents, and are still not able to provide normal safety and security conditions.

If I am correct, on average around 50,000 people died under Saddam each year,..., which is still half less, than after the American invasion.

However, I certainly DO hope, that things will turn out for the better and that Iraqis will be able to lead a normal life, ASAP.

And runningman, you are crossing the "racism line" at times by predicting a total crusaders war against Islam, and insulting other people. IMO if the entire billion or billions of muslims was/were against the Western "christian" countries, the world would really be a fucked up place.

So here's a solution for you: "JUST FUCK MORE AND HAVE MORE CHILDREN THAN THE MUSLIMS DO"

[gokada]

I don?t say I approve of Muslims treating their women bad: but there?s more sides to that. Seems you guys in the US and Canada get fed a really small portion of what Islam really is.

Actually Yao, the media here in the U.S., whether it be tv, newspapers, magazines, talk shows, etc...has really tried to show that Islam is a religion of peace, and I think any level headed person would realize that Islam is unfortunately being "hijacked" by radical extremists. I really don't understand why the rest of the world think that Americans are dumb or oblivious. I take that back, look at our crap reality shows, crap gossip shows, crap lots of other things; but that is not what the overwhelming
majority of the population here is all about. That overwhelming majority is very tolerant of other cultures and beliefs...unfortunately, the bad seeds stand out more and make it look like the rest of us are just as f#%*d up as they are. We're hard working (I believe we have much less holidays than most countries), compassionate, and forgiving. Don't let Hollywood taint what most other Americans are really about...

As far as your comparison of Muslims and Christians and the way they treat their women, you mentioned that beating women is a part of culture. Well whether or not that's the case, can't you agree that beating women, or anyone for that matter, is wrong? You sound like an intelligent person so I think you'll agree. At the same time, the fact that Christians "let" their women work and take care of kids is a part, not of Christianity, but of American culture. It takes 2 to make enough money to support the family here in the U.S.. Whether monogamy is better than polygamy or vice versa, depends on the culture. It's the way one is raised...I don't think one way is necessarily better than the other...just different from one another...that's all...

And some things do get fixed by fighting...now I'm not a warmonger...but we "fixed" Japan after the attack on Pearl Harbor (it's a personal struggle within me since I'm Japanese American), the Germans were "fixed" too...I agree that war sucks, innocent people always die and that sucks...the fact that we're fighting terrorists or insurgents in Iraq shows that the decision to go into Iraq in the first place may have been a good one, regardless of how it was done...we're fighting them over there instead of over here...the fact is that these people want to kill us, they've revealed their hate towards us by the USS Cole bombing, the embassy bombings, the WTC bombing in 1993, and obviously 9/11....they've attacked the world for about 20 years now (homicide bombers in Israel, the Berlin disotheque bombing, the Pan Am bombing in Lockerbie, Scotland, and the hijacking of the Italian cruise ship Achille Lauro)...I think we've taken all we can take...now, we have a President that isn't scared to act, that doesn't care what leaders of other nations think of him, and that has the guts to finally take on these assholes...Are we supposed to wait until they hit us again? Would you try to stop someone that wants to kill you and your family or would you wait for him to make the first move?

[runningman]

Yep exactly.. ^^

" It?s about a structural change, economically, politically and culturally that has to occur if these problems are to dissapear"

I agree with you 100%... but in order to prevent future events (ex.911) you have to get rid of these dictatorship (muslim religion led) countries because at any point they can turn and be evil.. History had taught us this.. These people hate us and we need to temporarily take over these countries that threaten us now and give the country back to the people and prove to them that our way is better.. that is how you get your education.. they don't want to read about it, they want to see it.. They hate our way of life.. or are they just jealous??
Iraq was just a start.. do i agree with the war in Iraq?? yes and no.. yes because saddam was evil and posed a serious threat to my way of life.. no because i felt there are other people that are the problem and should be held accountable like the muslim clerics.. those guys are evil people who just stand there and watch things like the taliban and leaders like saddam who gased his own.. there should have been something done buy there own people to help iraqies... So i don't trust there religion right now because of things happening in the world and what history has taught us about what to expect in the future.. If Bush was going to go into Iraq and Iran from the start then it would just be smart to go into Iraq to build a "homebase" for soldiers and planes then Iran.. Iran will be a tougher war and many more american soldiers will die in that war..

[Yao]

If you know muslims treat there woman bad then if you defend them then i can call you a sexist.. Right u call me a racist because of my views on this so you must be that then right??

I don?t say I approve of Muslims treating their women bad: but there?s more sides to that. Seems you guys in the US and Canada get fed a really small portion of what Islam really is.
I know for a fact that in Mali and Niger women would rather marry to a Muslim than a Christian. Know why?
Muslims have an obligation to take care of their women, and they will. Bigamy is allowed there, and the women appreciate that over Christianity with it?s monogamy. Because that way the hard work is divided among several women, thet will be fed and taken care of according to Islamic rules.
The Christians however let their one woman work on the land and take care of the children, too. The men work, too, but this way life is much harder for a woman, especially with several children to take care of.

Beating a woman occurs in Islam as well as Christian belief: it has more to do with culture than religion. Unfortunately those cultures have been mostly situated in Islamic areas, but it occurs among Christians as well. And the Qu?ran doesn?t say that a man is allowed to beat his woman, although some clerics (even in Europe) have argumented otherwise.

As for being a sexist: my lady is holy and not to be touched without love. Ok, that?s overdone, but you get the point eh?

So how do we fix it?? I would rather have the fight overseas in the middle east then sitting like a guppy waiting for the next punch.. If u don't have a plan to back your arguement of saying "The USA is bad for fighting the war on terror" then you have absolutely nothing usefull to say?

Well?read my post again, I think I was clear on that: EDUCATION. Do I need to spell it out? Question then is?how do we get to educate masses of people in hostile areas? I don?t know, but it?s not impossible. Use the people that are willing to do that, and are not bluntly against any Western suggestion. Universities and the intellectual elite are historically a good starting point for a revolution of any kind.

I didn?t say the US was bad for fighting the war on terrorism, did I? READ BABY, READ. Do I sound agitated? Well..I am. I?m not going to discuss every fucking detail from now on: I think it?s the way it is fought that is wrong. Anyone that has been around here longer than you and has read my posts will inform that that is what I?ve said, regardless of their stance on the war itself.

You don?t fix things by fighting, you only create temporary control over an area. It?s about a structural change, economically, politically and culturally that has to occur if these problems are to dissapear. The latter one will be hardest to achieve IMO.

[gokada]

Re: 100,000 civilians killed in Iraq?

Can someone tell me when the world's Muslim population got together and decided they wanted to take over the globe?

I can't tell you when or if they decided this, but I can tell you that Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world while the spread of Christianity is slowing...

[gokada]

come on Garrick! youy believe that shit?
that?s what they tell you.....that?s what they want you to think
the american soldiers kills. and your fucking bombs too

I believe it. Oh wait...I forgot...the only reason we are in Iraq is to see how many women and children we can kill. Or is that what they told you??

thank you evangelion...

[pointme]

Re: 100,000 civilians killed in Iraq?

The books and texts mostly deny the possibility of any other faith, which would automatically lead to xenophobia.

People however, have the freedom to do different, to interpret different. Wish they'd do that more often.

Nuff said!

[Yao]

monotheistic religions are arrogant and induce a latent xenophobia over time...history has shown that for both

Just for this once...I agree with you. Only this time.

And the arrogance is not neccesarily the attitude of the people, but more the way it is put in the world by 'the book', be it a Bible, Qu'ran or Thora.
The books and texts mostly deny the possibility of any other faith, which would automatically lead to xenophobia.

People however, have the freedom to do different, to interpret different. Wish they'd do that more often.

[sacredawe78]

they don't need to get together.. they want everyone to be muslim.. if not they will try to take over once there population gets bigger then the home nation.. If u don't like it they go to war.. Jihad.. war against there religion so they can kill you..

sounds to me a lot like the Spanish inqusition, the crusades, the witch burnings, etc. etc.

i believe those were all in the name of Christianity

its not just Islam that is stupid, its both

monotheistic religions are arrogant and induce a latent xenophobia over time...history has shown that for both

so dont avoid speaking more clearly of what the real problem is