obama vs. bush, pt II

[Shpira]

Re: obama vs. bush, pt II

No, there is a difference between the reasons a politician states as official reason for military involvement and true reasons behind military involvement. Why do you think the US got involved in Iraq but not in Darfur which is in a much much worse state than Iraq ever was...do yo honestly believe that it was because of WMD and if you do believe that how come North Korea is still standing?

Of course every government serves its citizens, thats the basis of international society. The US government DOES serve its people...it just prefers its citizens who are rich to those that are not so rich.

If the US truly acted in the interest of the international community it would get UN approval before invading Iraq and it wouldn't be the most resented government in the world...spreading democracy is a means to an end not an end achieved by other means i.e. by spreading 'democracy' the US increases its influence.

Look at the Military aid given post sept 11 to Turkey, a nation that kills its own people...that same aid was then later used to kill thousands of Kurds...or what about Asia? or Saudi Arabia?

How do you think the US picks what nation its going to spread 'democracy' to next? on the basis of self interest of course...

anyway...I really don't like ranting on like this you should seriously read some stuff if you are really interested in politics...

[Mariner1]

Re: obama vs. bush, pt II

I was simply pointing out that the primary functions of our government do not include interventionism wherever and whenever it damn pleases.

I was explaining how our government doesn't exist to serve anyone but its citizens, and to illustrate that it now serves just about everyone else but those who grant it power. That is to say, it has exceeded its proper functions. And at great expense to all of us.

You suggested that our government, because of it's status, should
make decisions on what is best for the whole world, that is to say, factor other countries interests into its analysis of how it should act/respond. Well, we DO do that, and that is indeed why much is fucked up today. That Wilsonian mentality of spreading democracy with bombs to make us feel good about freeing the shit out of impoverished people has harmed us more than it has made slight benefit to anyone, or anything.

[Shpira]

Re: obama vs. bush, pt II

^^that doesn't actually make much sense. How do you imagine the US government is supposed to serve its citizens? lock down its borders or something?
Your hard work? Thats just fucking ignorant man...everything the US spends on foreign policy comes back to the US ten-fold thats precisely my point...business was going well for the US until now.

The US government has ALWAYS interfered in other nations politics read your own nations history man...1823 Monroe Doctorine; Bolivia, Argentina, Panama, Venezuela, Nicaragua just to name a few in that time frame. 180 military involvements in the 20th century...hardly something that Bush can be blamed for.

As for the middle east...I know many people are emotionally vested in that particular example but I think that they should have been left alone...yes there are economically sound arguments i.e. oil but I would sacrifice my life style if there was even a slight chance to get some fucking peace in the world.

[Mariner1]

Re: obama vs. bush, pt II

^^Yes, thats true I am not praising Bush in the least lol BUT is that whats best for the whole world?
My argument is that since US influence is so great, US foreign policy must encompass the best for the whole world...i.e. multilateral approach rather than going around doing damage to everyone in order to get some growth in the US economy.

If that is not the case than the US should (pardon my french) mind its own fucking business.

The United States Government should always have minded it's own fucking business. The government should serve the citizens who fund it, not any other individual, government, or organization. Or else, you get exactly what you have come to see in the present day: a macrocosm of Washington D.C. itself on a global level...where every nation/prime minister/president/dictator act as lobbyists trying to extract more wealth, rights, and entitlements at the expense of our hard work.

[i!!ustrious]

Re: obama vs. bush, pt II

the middle east is the plexus of the world. it is the prominent battleground and burning ground for humanity and it's progressive races/civilizations over the more recent millenniums(east meets west kinda stuff). it all has to go forward and be worked out over time i would assume.

try to imagine and hypothesize the course of happenings -- if western prominence had not intervened in the middle east? what might have transpired for the better or worse?

why did krishna insist that arjuna do his duty and fight (allegorically or historically it don't matter)? in the bhagavad gita. i'm abstractly alluding to the west's presence there. idunno maybe the political regime here is so corrupt and mislead that it has become much more complicated then a issue of stability and duty.

btw., i think obama as a speaker, is up to the titanic challenge of stimulating the moral and determination of the nation.

[Shpira]

Re: obama vs. bush, pt II

^^Yes, thats true I am not praising Bush in the least lol BUT is that whats best for the whole world?
My argument is that since US influence is so great, US foreign policy must encompass the best for the whole world...i.e. multilateral approach rather than going around doing damage to everyone in order to get some growth in the US economy.

If that is not the case than the US should (pardon my french) mind its own fucking business.

[DIDI]

Re: obama vs. bush, pt II

Obama is doing is simply what needs to be done for the US at this time...when the US needs change so will his policies.

And here we have one of the major reasons Obama is so much better than Bush. Bush DIDN'T do what needed to be done. You now have someone who will !!!

[chloe harris]

Re: obama vs. bush, pt II

and he's already made impact on what bush has done.

he's working for people like me and i like that. there are great politicians in office in a lot of places. i've become very close to someone i deem truly inspirational who works in seattle poltics. thats small pie compared to the president, but i see him motivating and enriching and helping people everyday.

[Shpira]

Re: obama vs. bush, pt II

how dare he actually care about the people and want to make a difference in their lives. one step at a time.

I can't believe that anyone actually thinks this about any career politician.

Realistically the best that you can hope for is that he will erase what Bush has done...we will see if I am right with the Health care reforms...actually we don't have to wait at all, in his election promise he said health care reforms so that every American can afford to go to hospital... now go to cnn.com and read what the actual reforms will be. The only way that health care reforms can be introduced is with some permanent changes...all he has done and plans on doing are temporary measures to help during the recession. Its all bullshit, same old same old...even if he wanted change he is one man against a system that is inherently inefficient and undemocratic. Too much money has been invested to make the US system the way it is for any single man to change it.

[Mariner1]

Re: obama vs. bush, pt II

well he has inspired a whole nation. i think that's working for the rest of us.

i doubt obama is doing what he's doing just for good press. how dare he actually care about the people and want to make a difference in their lives. one step at a time.

have you not noticed the other things he done... ? new climate policies, leaving iraq date, stimulus, ceo bonuses, and so on..

leaving iraq date

yeah tell me more about that...

one of the few reasons to support Obama and our early exist does not look promising at all
//sending more troops to afghanistan?

[chloe harris]

Re: obama vs. bush, pt II

well he has inspired a whole nation. i think that's working for the rest of us.

i doubt obama is doing what he's doing just for good press. how dare he actually care about the people and want to make a difference in their lives. one step at a time.

have you not noticed the other things he done... ? new climate policies, leaving iraq date, stimulus, ceo bonuses, and so on..

[runningman]

Re: obama vs. bush, pt II

it is a great story. But what can he do about the other 24,999,999 mil people out there?

[Localizer]

Re: obama vs. bush, pt II

^ I'm so with you about 'change.' I'm about to go postal if I hear about 'change' again.

In any case, about the subject, ya, politicians lack empathy and a soul. He's doing it for nothing more than the press and it's there to further insinuate that more money needs to be redistributed. Rather than giver her a house, he should have given her a job.

[Shpira]

Re: obama vs. bush, pt II

i think time has passed and things have changed.

You can think what you will (no offense intended) but I will ask you and all others in in 4 years time if we are still here...anyone who follows politics will tell you (as can I if you are really interested) a hundred reasons why all that Obama is doing is simply what needs to be done for the US at this time...when the US needs change so will his policies.
The US has very few allies left in the world and is running out of cash or credit to run around doing what it sees as its best interest.
Chinese economy is booming as Clinton comes to ask for more Chinese money and the psycho in the Kremlin is waving to all the troops in Afghanistan as he fucks them over by closing down bases they get supplies from one by one...

Don't get me wrong I have nothing against the US or Russia or any nation (on a personal level at least) its just that all this bullshit about change etc is really starting to get on my nerves.
People talking about Obama like he's a messiah thats gonna deliver everyone out all their problems...again don't get me wrong I have nothing against Obama either but I just haven't seen very much change that doesn't directly benefit the US i.e. change in foreign policy which doesn't have alterior motives...

So as I say all we can do is wait and see...

[ddr]

Re: obama vs. bush, pt II

sad thing is that there are thousands of people that are in her exact same shoes and they wont get the time of day because they arent lucky enough to be in the right time at the right place like she was.

only reason she was given a home was because Obama came to her and made a big deal about it... and seriously, what is a President to do when that story is told to you?

i wish i could get a free home.